Please note: Antinomians are those who believe that people can be saved and won't need to adhere to any standards of God at all in order to make it to heaven. To see why I believe Joseph Prince teaches this, see this article.
Entering the local Koorong Christian bookstore yesterday, I immediately noticed a book with an attractive looking young Asian man on the cover. The picture was of Joseph Prince, the title of the book, "Destined to Reign", and the subtitle went as follows: "The secret to effortless success, wholeness and victorious living."
Wow. Effortless Success! Amazing! And this young man can teach me the secret to this! Folks, there's one born every minute. Even the front cover of this book should tell you that something is wrong.
The Bible tells us in 2 Timothy 4 the following, and I used it for the biblical basis of why I would take the time to write an article like this:
"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."
(2 Timothy 4:1-5)
The apostle Paul tells us here to convince, rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and teaching. So by the grace of God we will do that.
Now Joseph Prince uses the writings of the apostle Paul, in particular verses like Romans 5:17 and other verses about God's mercy and grace to establish his position. If Joseph Prince and his followers wish to quote the apostle Paul as a source of true inspiration, they should be willing to listen to everything he said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and not just construct something pleasing to the ear out of selected portions of the Scripture. If Prince is a lover of truth, he has to deal with all the New Testament Scriptures and not just some favorite ones.
The warning here is a prophecy given by God. It says that the time will come when God's people will begin to heap for themselves teachers who will speak to them according to their desires, according to what their itching ears want to hear. Now I don't know about you, but the idea of "effortless success" kind of appeals to me. And before I learned to love righteousness and hate wickedness, the idea of unconditional forgiveness and acceptance from God while I serve my own desires was also kind of appealing. It was something I could believe in, because I wanted to, and so did many of the people I knew. If you read my testimony, you will know that I thought I was a Christian because I believed certain doctrines about God's forgiveness being available to me through the cross of Christ – and I thought I could live for myself while still receiving these benefits. The idea of needing to REPENT of sin seemed way to narrow for us. We would have called it "legalistic".
If you and I can have "effortless success", then why did Jesus Christ make the following statement?
Luke 13:24 Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (NIV). In the New King James: "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
Jesus, if I can have "effortless success", Ps Joseph Prince tells me in a top selling book in a respected Christian bookstore and around the world, why do you tell me to "make every effort" to enter salvation, or even worse, to "strive".
And Jesus, if you were so keen to do away with the moral requirements of the law, why did you seem to make it even tougher when you said:
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Jesus, is that teaching really for us today, or were you just being a bit tough on the Jewish people of the time because they were under the law anyway, and you wanted to rub it in until your servant Paul could come and change the message for you?
There are hundreds of passages which don't fit in nicely with the idea of effortless success or salvation without repentance, but we live in a biblically illiterate age, where church people are too busy pursuing wealth and material success to have time to study the Bible. So for this reason, people flock to charismatic pastors like Joseph Prince whose theological education is limited to get their feel good message for the week to keep them motivated and upbeat about the week ahead. I understand that, but I see it as idolatrous nonetheless. We MUST study God's Word for ourselves at some stage in our lives, and heavily, if we are going to avoid being pulled into the Last Day's Deception which the Bible promises us and which in fact seems to be upon us now also in the charismatic, full gospel church scene.
I first heard about Joseph Prince from my pastor at the time on the Gold Coast who heard him speak at a Hillsong Conference. This pastor told me he considered Joseph Prince to be a false teacher, that he teaches salvation without the need for repentance or godly living, and that to preach the Ten Commandments at all makes you a "preacher of death". Hearing this report made me lose more respect for Brian Houston, the leader of the Hillsong Megachurch. For you see, Brian Houston must be very appreciative of the teachings of Joseph Prince. This is evidenced firstly by the repeated invitations to minister at the huge Hillsong Conferences, and secondly by the glowing endorsement Houston wrote on the back of the book I just referred to. But rather than focus at this stage on names, I would like to look at the actual ideas that Joseph Prince is promoting, and compare them with Scripture. In the end it will be for my readers to decide which doctrine they will believe, and which doctrine conforms most to the spirit and intent of the Scriptures as they are written.
I hope to write more on this subject later and soon, because the situation can't be properly addressed in a short blog post like this one. But it should be addressed as it relates to the very core of what our faith is about, and the issue of what God requires for those who wish to be reconciled to Him and saved. And because there is a real dearth of courageous pastors in the Pentecostal movement who are willing to rebuke false teachers, I, even I, will have a go. If the Lord should reveal further truth to myself or others in this process, may His Name be praised. We need a love of the truth to even make it into Christ's Eternal Kingdom these days. The love of the truth is going to cost us something. Its NOT going to be effortless. Yes, Christ's grace DOES empower us in the fight, and without Christ's grace we would be utterly inadequate. It is to the true grace of God I look in order to be saved in these last days.
Let us remember the words of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
God's grace be with you.
Michael
On this article on Antinomianism.
The etymological development of the term Antinomian is the antonym to the Greek word Nomos [Strong’s Greek # 355] meaning Law, which in the Septuagint Greek Bible is appropriate for the Hebrew term Torah [Strong’s # H8451,] signifying God’s scriptural laws. Its Hebrew equivalent in the OT writings is the word Torah. The word Antinomian is translated Against Law, or lawlessness in the NT. This term in the NT is often used in ecclesiastical literature to indicate a context of heresy, apostasy, sacrilege, heretical doctrine or heretic and Martin Luther also called Antinomians “false brethren” – in short, one who is lawless, or against the God’s Law. The use of the word Lawless (Antinomian) or (Anomos) in the NT specifically indicates iniquity, transgressor, sinful, one who lives apart from the God’s Law.
[A book that provided an extensive list of these reference books on this subject matter and reach the same agreement that the word Antinomianism derived from Anomian definition, it is appropriately name “ANTINOMIANISM.” By Mark Jones.]
Being against the God’s Law or Lawless can mean different things to differ people in a theological context. The best focus is to discover its original meaning and the clearest biblical understanding. No biblical writing can be divorced from a Hebraic understanding. The Christian writings define all scripture as God-breathed and useful for correction, etc., which includes the complete OT writings. In referring to Law, the NT understanding was that of the Hebrew writers and majority audience of the first century.
Some Christian interpretation of the word Antinomian lawless is that it indicates a breach of general morality…a breach of a “moral law.” But a serious search of this word God’s Law / Torah in the OT provides clear proof that there was a specific Law being referred to, namely the Instruction given to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai. In every way, the OT refers to God’s Law as eternal, good, easy, accessible, and life-giving. The setting of the NT gospels was the Jewish world in which there was no other understanding of this term. It was a corporate document between God and Israel national constitution and also a personal moral law for every individual.
Any interpretation of the term Nomos [Strong’s Greek # 355] meaning Law, in the NT must be informed by its context in the first century Jewish world and its writers. Any conclusions drawn outside of this context are not exegesis, (the original understanding in the context of the original writers and audience), but eisegesis, (applying a later culture’s understanding outside of its original context). Removing our biblical approach away from the writings’ original meaning and context alters our understanding away from the authenticity of scriptural authority and creates a foreigner belief structure. The clarity of scripture is important as our sole guide, for the Bible teaches not to add to or subtract from any word of God’s Instruction which a command which specifically refers to God’s Law. Any creed that purports to add to or subtract from the veracity of the consistent biblical instruction is in violation of the scriptures.
[Recommended reading on this subject matter is the book “Restoring Abrahamic Faith” by Professor James D. Tabor.]
The idea of a moral code apart from an understandable written scriptural Instruction / Torah / God’s Law is not biblical. The terms of the Law and its specifics frame God’s definition of what morality is to Him, not to any other authority. Within it, He names the rights guaranteed to those who enter into its terms. Rights, such as things we have come to think of as inalienable rights today, are defined clearly in the Law of God so there is no room for abrogation or their dismissal. The scriptural inalienable rights of freedom of chose, equality, the right to bear arms. equal justice, freedom from oppression, freedom of expression, listen to God’s instructions on creating a limited government system. limited taxation, the inalienable right to your own land, the creed to resist tyranny. The God’s Law guarantees its participants their rights. To have no Law other than one that is not clearly defined is to allow for morality to be defined individually by each person according to only their understanding. In this way, it embraces the original rebellion of the evil generation that was destroyed in the Flood in Noah’s day because of opting to do “what was right in their own eyes.” To not define Law in the terms He already gave is to take away our own rights guaranteed by Him and His clear instruction of how to morally be in right standing.
[Recommended viewing on this subject matter is the DVD film “The Isaiah 9: 10 Judgment.”]
Clearly stated in the text is that His Instruction is not a perverse moral code that cannot be participated in by flawed mortals, but is required to be a relationship issuing from the heart…His and ours…joined with instruction in the path of His morality. (insert verses about with all your heart mind and soul, about their not being too difficult, what is right and what is good). His law is never to be abused but is to be understood in the twin expression of What is Right and What is Good.
Humans recognize the necessity for national laws. Without them, societies would descend into chaos and anarchy and be preyed upon by tyrants. The hearts of the citizens have to preserve a desire to have an upright society, or the laws will be changed over time because heart and action are divided from each other. The rule of law is central to the protection of a population from injustice and being manipulated by the unscrupulous. But the hearts of the people have to value law as God intented, or it will eventually reflect the compromises and not preserve its original intent and function.
[Recommended reading on this subject matter is the book “YHWH exists” by Jodel Onstott.]
God states that his Law is eternal. The terms are eternal, and hearts that joined with His intention of a protective relationship and a People who reflect His priorities are the center of His Law. The beauty of God’s Law is its function as a national covenant and an individual one. It is the framework of a relationship and a lifestyle of people participating with God in this agreement. It frames protective and ennobling parameters rather than being misunderstood to be a monolith of legalistic dictates. Explore what scripture says about itself first, before applying external interpretations.
[Recommended reading on this subject matter is a 12 page narrative on the web name “Anti Judaism” by distinguish author David Hulme. On http://www.centuryone.com]
Jack
GOD BLESS YOU Buck, I REALLY LIKED READING THAT
GOD BLESS YOU Buck, I REALLY LIKED READING THAT
GOD BLESS YOU BARIE
I have said before that anyone who is sufficiently grounded in God’s Word and has learned to think critically about what someone is teaching/preaching can easily see the deception and errors in Joseph’s Prince’s false grace preaching–in his teaching/preaching on conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit (God clearly convicts believers, as well as unbelievers of sin), on repentance (not just a change of mind from negative thoughts to positive ones, but a radical inward change in the heart/mind that changes the way one lives), and finally in his heretical , antinomian preaching/teaching that the Christian is no longer obliged to obey the moral law of God (Ten Commandments), contrary to Jesus’ declaration that He did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets , but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17 compare Romans 8:4) and the teachings of the apostles John and Paul that obedience to the moral law of God (Ten Commandments) is the very essence or proof of one’s love for God; indeed, of genuine faith itself (1 John 5: 2-3; Romans 3:31; 1 John 3: 7-9). We are redeemed from the “curse” or condemning nature of the law (Romans 3:20; James 2:10) which shows us our hopelessness and inability to meet God’s perfect standards and drives us into the loving arms of One who alone is qualified to save us from sin–the sinless Lamb of God (Galatians 3:24). But we have not been redeemed from the obligation to love God with all our heart, with all our soul and all our mind and strength, and our neighbour as ourselves–which Jesus taught sums up the whole law of God. God’s commandments are a divine prescription or exact copy of the perfect nature and holy Character of God–a moral guide to holy conduct, without which scripture tells us no man will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). The very idea that one can be lawless with respect to God’s moral law (which is what antinomianism [“against law”] means) and still go to heaven is foreign to scripture. Christians obey the moral law of God (Ten Commandments) not to earn salvation in any sense (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5) but rather because they are saved out of gratitude for what Christ has done at such high cost (His death and resurrection) to fulfill the just demands of God’s law on their behalf (Romans 8:4) and because His holy commandments are not burdensome to keep because God has graciously written the law on their hearts (Jer. 31:31; Hebrews 10:16) ) and given them the indwelling Holy Spirit to help them do so. God bless.
Truthfully he does not… Yes the bible says to be beware of sheep in wolves clothing and that in context is about teaching that there is another way to salvation other than the sacrifice of our Precious Lord Jesus. And if anyone watched Joseph Prince for 1/2 a second they would know, without doubt, that he teaches Christ crucified for the salvation of sins. As far as Grace being taught in abundance and it leading to sin-promoting, sin-excusing, sin-loving rebels, even Paul was attacked for this being a fear of people in his day. Please, read the bible in context. Please examine the scriptures and bring concerns to your Heavenly Father. If you think that Joseph Prince doesn’t teach the fear of the Lord, you are wrong. You are just afraid just like the people of Paul’s day. How will we ever be a light to this dark world if we do not have a handle on “Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest” or “Come as you are” or “I will change you from the inside out and make you like a sweet smelling fragrance” or “I will make your willing and able to do My will”? We are all filthy and only Christ’s sacrifice is worthy in the Lord’s eyes. Be an encourager, there is only torment in fear. All praise to Jesus our Redeemer. When we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be!
Yes Marina, The Lord knew and yes repentance is to turn from sin. However, if anyone says they do not sin, they are a liar. However, I think what the writer was concerned about was the attacks of Joseph Prince. Joseph Prince, if listened to on a regular basis, is very sure to point out that if someone is trying to apply grace to their desire to continue in sin, the Lord is sure to know their deceitfulness, however, if we sin and fall into condemnation versus being thankful for the Blood of our Precious Lord that covers all our sins, we look to our own self-righteousness to justify us. You see the prodigal son was turned away from the Lord in all his ways, he was unsaved! It is so important to know when the bible is referring to the saved vs. the unsaved. Grace and God’s abundant blessings to you Marina. Love in Christ
Bobbie
Dear Anthony, The scripture also says that not all things are apparent and that all will be revealed on judgement day. Also , the word says, do not try to remove the tare or you may also in the process pull out some wheat. Please be careful of your quoting of the scriptures. Yes, when people say that sin, sexual, drunkenness and many others, are acceptable, they are to be, 1st approached by 1 witness, then by 2 or more, then to be shunned, and by this they may be shamed and repent. (repenting by stop saying that sin is acceptable and not even being worried or upset about sin) The bible is very clear that the Lord would have all men come to Him. This is what He expects our obedience in, is to love our brother as we love ourselves, and in love, admonish one another in peace. Many verses about self-righteousness are pretty scary as well… That is why the bible also says, first take the log out of your own eye, so that you may see clearly, in order that you might help your brother remove the toothpick from his eye, and that has
everything to do with loving your brother!
It is so interesting how 2 different trains of thought can use the same verse, not all who say Lord, Lord, on that day will enter heaven…Someone is wrong! And how lovely that even a young child can understand the Abraham’s faith in God alone was accredited to him…
1 Corinthians 3:10-11 (KJV) says, “According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Our foundation should be on the redemptive work of Jesus’ death on the cross. While we go on to live righteous lives (Romans 6), our foundation should not be on our “works” (Romans 4:2 KJV). No man should boast of himself, and of his “deeds of the law” (Romans 3:28 KJV). Our boasting should be of Christ’s redemptive work.
2 Corinthians 10:17 (NIV): But, “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”
The issue at stake is whether people who are NOT being made holy, who feel quite safe in their sins and who are firmly on the throne of their own hearts, come into the category of those who are "FOREVER made perfect". I don't think this Scripture says so.
Justification is not based on perfect performance, but it only belongs to those who are on the path of life, who are being sanctified and delivered from the power of sin.
We are not "fighting over menial stuff".
We are defending one of the foundational principles of the New Testament. We are fighting over issues that pertain to ETERNAL SALVATION. Heaven and hell.
The apostle Paul named names of people he considered to be very dangerous – Hymaneus and Alexander, and so did the apostle John (Diotrephes). So there is a biblical precedent for this kind of thing.
And Jesus said to BEWARE of False prophets. Not to go to their churches and download their sermons from itunes.
3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 3,4
What is turning the grace of God into lasciviousness? What do you think it is?
The idea that if a ministry claiming to be Christian is in fact false that GOD will step in and cause it to fall in some time frame, has no foundation either in Scripture or experience.
Let us suppose that Joseph Prince IS after all preaching the true gospel. That would mean amongst other things that the Roman Catholic Church is preaching a false gospel (something I also believe, but maybe for other reasons).
DID GOD BRING DOWN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH?
Not for the last 1500 years.
DID GOD BRING DOWN THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, or THE MORMONS?
No. Their numbers are growing.
DID GOD BRING DOWN ISLAM?
No, the false prophecies of Mohammed are gaining more adherents with every passing year.
I don't spend time lots of time praying that God will bring down false prophets. God has not called me to invest prayer time in that.
So even if Joseph Prince grows his church to a million members, its still going to be a lot smaller than Islam, than the Mormons, or the Catholic Church. But it could still be false. We have to weigh the doctrine taught against the Word of God taken as a whole.
The size of the religious group says almost NOTHING about the truth of its beliefs.
The easiest way to get people to swallow fatal poison is to mix it in with truth. It is true for example that we cannot be saved by striving to keep the law. But this does not imply that it is unnecessary to walk by the leading of the Holy Spirit, or to stay out of certain kinds of sinful lifestyles, if we want to enter life.
You may not see this chowow, but for the rest who will… Paul himself was a Pharisee, and he led the Jewish people just like our pastors today lead the flocks of churches. Now on more than one occasion the Pharisees were labeled as snakes, really, vipers.
Now let’s say I wanted to be a scribe or Pharisee, or in today’s world a pastor. I would do all the Pharisees did, I would believe all they taught and try my hardest to be the best Pharisee I could be. The general society in Paul’s day evidently didn’t know they were following a brood of vipers; they thought they were following God’s leaders.
Now wouldn’t it have been just great for Paul when he was still young and impressionable, someone to have sat down with him and had a discussion… said, “Paul don’t you think the way the Pharisees do all their works in front of men is a bit odd? Yesterday I helped my younger brother with his homework instead of just hanging around the house, and in no way did I feel like I should announce it at the dinner table. The fact that he was glad he understood was more than enough joy for me. What do you think Paul, are the Pharisees right in their conduct?”
It would have meant the world for Paul if perhaps he had never had any divine encounters with God, and ended up in hell to a rude awakening of um, the crazy blasphemous dude I killed is putting me in hell forever. Now I don’t agree with the way this has become a great place to speak evil of people. Furthermore I don’t agree with much of what Michael says, but as long as I am yet to have my divine encounter with God, I like to keep my ears open to that one remark that keeps me far from the depths of hell.
I would like to add that all throughout bible history, God has this amazing tendency of letting the masses just fall right into hell up till some point. Take for example the heathen. For centuries those who weren’t Jewish were bound for hell, with the exception of a few like Rahab. I doubt they would call worshipping the moon and rocks and dirt “idolatry” and worshipping “false gods”. One might as where God was then, as I’m sure any one would have wanted one of these divine encounters Paul had to get them out of hellfire! Or maybe as the blind lead the blind both fall into a ditch.
That’s right. However, one decides through his or her own will to be distant. It all goes back to the will.
Friends, after hearing so much debating and arguing and condemning and boasting.. all i can ask is, is all these worth it?
I can imagine our Father in heaven looking down on this forum, would He be pleased with all this He is seeing? Are all these debates more important than spending time with Him? Sure enough, I know all of you have probably studied the bible more than I do, and I certainly am not fit to tell all of you to click the ‘x’ button and go spend time with God.
But the point I want to make is, Michael, so what if you prove that this area of what Pastor Prince is sharing about is not “sound”, oh repentance is essential for salvation, so what if another person proves that this area is “biblical”, oh we are perfected by the blood of Christ?
I want to bring us to just this simple commandment that John the apostle mentioned from God in 1 John. John the beloved disciple, the disciple who knew he was loved by Jesus, 1 John, the book which you quoted several times from, gives this commandment (i.e. something certain and sure to be correct).
1 John 3:23 (NKJV)
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Is Pastor Prince preaching against this commandment? Is he asking his church followers to not love one another? Is he asking them to not believe in the name of Jesus Christ? If not, why are we nit picking on every little “doctrine” or “phrase” he says? Is it edifying?
I have many pointers to justify my argument, but i just don’t see the point in.
Just to bring us to something i shared in another segment,
http://www.christian-faith.com/how-to-overcome-sin
I used to be wary of Pastor Prince’s sharing and went all on the “oh prosperity gospel, oh license to sin” hooha. But then I realised, God has a plan for every speaker.
Pastor Prince has shared countless of times of not being under law and staying bondage to sin. But points to grace of Jesus Christ as power to set people free from sin. Is he promoting sin and lawlessness? I personally have been blessed by Pastor Prince’s ministry of grace setting people free from the law. I don’t think anyone who teaches people to get out of sin preaches on “no repentance”.
I used to have the mindset that “oh that guy sinned again, what a lousy Christian, maybe he isn’t saved.” But, after having a fresh revelation of the grace of Jesus through Pastor Prince, I no longer have that judgmental attitude, and not condemning anyone who i see keeps sinning. After all, who am I to place a charge against God’s elect, it is God who justifies.
I believe different preachers have different callings. Some may be called to preach to the lawless and preach to them about brimstone and hellfire. But some may be called to preach to those who have been oppressed by condemning preachers and pastors and set them free in the power of the grace of our Lord Jesus. Who are we to put down their ministries? Do we play God now? If Pastor Prince is really a false prophet, would God turn a blind eye to his ministry? Would God not crumble his ministry and leave him to “start repenting?” If like what you said, Pastor Prince is a false prophet, then are you saying God is ignorant and leading His sheep to the wrong shepherd? I believe God leads His people to the right shepherd, and I believe having a 19,000 member church and growing ministry states clearly that God wants to set His people free from the law and condemnation of judgmental preachers. Or would you dare to condemn the 19,000 believers, and say that they are all heading to eternal hellfire?
If after hearing all this from me, you still believe Pastor Prince is a false prophet, i challenge you, as a fellow brother, read his book and go on itunes and listen to 10 of his podcast. Take up my challenge, and believe it for yourself.
If you still do not believe Pastor Prince is appointed by God to preach, it is ok. You can pray with all your might for God to crumble his ministry. After all, God will defend His own word and His sheep. But do us all a favour, don’t go flaming and accusing on a Christian website. It is quite sad when non-Christians come in and see us arguing and fighting over menial stuff, and they think, is there any difference from their own families? That would be really sad.
So Michael, why am i spending my precious sleep at 2am typing all this. I just wanna tell you that i’m greatly encouraged by this website that promotes love and encouragement and edification between brothers. But to use it as a platform for debate and pin pointing and nit picking and accusing of pastors preachings and people who comment in it, I find it a little saddening.
Just my two cents worth. I won’t be back again, perhaps we’ll meet up there. May God bless your website ministry (:
p.s. if you believe you can lose your salvation, then you are believing that salvation is by works. cos losing it is a work by itself.
Books, chapters, authors, etc. Essentially and basically speaking point to the fall of man and the redemption of man by way of Jesus and the cross. Jesus came to redeem us, He gave us all instructions and a way to live, then commissioned us to go out and make other disciples.
The order of books in the bible does have some significance. For example, Job is the oldest book in the bible, but it is placed way after Genesis. And God could have arranged the epistles of the New Testament in the order they were written, as common sense would suggest. But the order of Paul’s epistles jumps around if we were to go by the dates they were written.
There must have been a reason for God to depart from common sense.
It is irrelevant who wrote what, or who’s name is on what book, both Old and New Testaments, have been written by God Himself, through the power and leading of the Holy Spirit.
The words used, are exactly the words God wanted written, none others. so when we read the words of Romans, 1 Peter, James etc. we are in actuality having God Himself speaking to us.
That is exactly the reason there are “NO CONTRADICTIONS” found within the pages of the Bible.
It is literally “The Word of God”
So any discussion about when some Apostle wrote something is absurd, God wrote the whole thing from cover to cover, at exactly the time he wanted it written, then he had all of the words, verses, chapters, books placed into His book exactly where HE wanted them to be. PERIOD
JIM
According to the maps at the back of my KJV bible, Paul’s journey to Rome was in A.D. 59-60. His first missionary journey was from A.D. 46-48, the second from A.D. 49-52, and the third from A.D. 53-57. Since Paul wrote Romans around A.D. 57, this means that he either wrote Romans towards the end of his third missionary journey or after his third missionary journey.
And if Paul wrote Romans only after travelling to different places as a missionary for about a decade, this means that Paul was experienced in ministry when he wrote Romans. Therefore, I believe that what Paul writes in Romans is essential to us, especially the basis he establishes in Romans 3, 4, 7, 8, 9 and 10. Furthermore, by the Holy Spirit, Romans is placed immediately after Acts, although Paul wrote Romans towards the end or even after his three missionary journeys and not the beginning.
What Jesus teaches is important and we do practise his teachings. However, a foundation based on human works is unstable because no one can be justified by his works before God. On the other hand, if we base our foundation on God’s goodness to us that comes apart from us working for it, it is unshakeable.
distance is what causes a fall,failure to stay in sight of God
Romans chapter 7 verses 15-25 talks about Paul’s struggle under the Law. Rev. C. I. Scoffield seemed to think that the strife was between the divine nature and the sinful nature. I tend to disagree with him on this. The sinful nature is our “old man”. It is what separated us from God. When a person accepts Christ as Lord and Savior, he or she crucifies that “old man” with Christ. This would mean death to the sinful nature. (Romans 6:6-7) It is then replaced with God’s divine nature, which puts the believer in right standing with God. (2 Peter 1:4)
Rev. Scoffield carries this theme of conflict over into Romans chapter 8, where he says there is a conflict between the flesh and the Spirit. Personally, when I see the word “flesh” in this chapter, I think of a lost person. When I see the word “Spirit” I think of the saved person. I will explain why. I will be dealing with Romans 8:1-17.
I went through these verses and picked out phrases that were descriptive of the “flesh” and of the “Spirit”.
THE LOST PERSON (IN THE FLESH)
Verse 1: Walks after the flesh
Verse 2: Are under the law of sin and death (which is the Law of Moses under the Old Covenant).
Verse 3: Under condemnation
Verse 5: Minds the things of the flesh
Verse 6: Has a carnal mind that brings death
Verse 7: Has a carnal mind that is at enmity against God
Verse 8: Cannot please God
Verse 9: Does not have a relationship with God
Verse 13: Is on the path of death.
Verse 15: Is in bondage [This is insinuated by the fact that this trait does not belong to the believer]
THE SAVED PERSON (IN THE SPIRIT)
Verse 1: Under no condemnation; walks after the Spirit
Verse 2: Under the law of the Spirit of life (which is the law of Grace, or the law of Love under the New Covenant); are free in Christ
Verse 4: Has fulfilled the law through Jesus Christ
Verse 5: Minds the things of the Spirit
Verse 6: Has life and peace
Verse 9: Are not in the flesh
Verse 10: Dead to sin; has life through the Spirit because of righteousness
Verse 11: Mortal bodies are quickened [made alive] by the Spirit
Verse 13: Mortifies [puts down] the deeds of the flesh
Verse 14: Is a son of God
Verse 15: Received the Spirit of adoption where by God can be called ABBA, Father
Verse 17: Is an heir of God; a sufferer with Christ
There is a passage of Scripture in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, where Paul calls the Corinthian believer’s carnal. The use of the word “carnal” is meant to sting these Corinthian believers. It is not that they were carnal, but that they were acting carnal. So, he calls them carnal. These were immature Christians, who were being divisive over whom they followed. In verse 1 of the same chapter Paul calls them “babes in Christ”. That means even though these believers were misbehaving they still belonged to Christ.
You may ask, “What causes a Christian to sin if the sinful nature is gone and that person now has the divine nature?” We sin for the same reason Adam and Eve did even though they had God’s nature. Their will is what caused them to sin. Satan could not make them eat from The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil against their will. He had to trick them into eating from it. He cheated, in other words. You’ll notice that God gave Adam and Eve a warning about that tree. He told them not to eat from it or they would die, but He left the decision up to them. He let them decide. God does not interfere with our will, but He does do things to bend our will to His will. He doesn’t go behind our backs to do it. He comes up front. The believer must learn to submit his or her will to God’s will.
Jesus’ teachings are important. However, grace through faith is still the foundation, and we need to visit the foundation time and again so that we do not forget. We do not deserve to go to heaven and neither do we deserve God’s blessings for we have all sinned and fall short of His glory.
It is not by our righteousness, but by God’s goodness and His promises in His covenants that God blesses us because we never measure up completely. Deuteronomy 9:4-6 (NIV), especially Deuteronomy 9:6 below show this.
4 After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, “The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.” No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.
5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.
Great but not the greatest. Jesus said in Matthew 18:3 (NIV), “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
I do know that only by the shedding of innocent blood is there remission of sins. I also know that in Old Testament times, the High Priest would have to offer yearly sacrifices to atone for the sins of the Israelites on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. These are what I know having thought through things for myself.
The fact that the Israelites in Old Testament times do not know about salvation through Jesus Christ does not mean that there is no eternal life in heaven.
And I do know two things for a fact. One, the Law of Moses reveals sin, and when one is tainted with sin, he is no longer righteous. Two, for God to allow entry into heaven, one must be deemed righteous.
Paul & James wrote the Scriptures (The Word of God) inspired by the Holy Spirit irrespective of when they wrote. Both “Romans” & “James” are the Word of God, written by Men of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.
My NLT bible with some background information on each book says that James was written probably around A.D. 49, before the Jerusalem Council held in A.D. 50, whereas Romans was written around A.D. 57. Therefore, one might suppose that Paul, the author of Romans, might have known what was written in James before he wrote Romans.
The fact that Romans is placed before James in the bible although James was written earlier could mean that Paul’s teachings in Romans could be the foundation and what it says in James could be a manifestation or result.
I’m not very clear what do you consider as “works” for the Lord.
Also regarding Abraham’s ‘Giving’ to the Lord, this is what i quote from Gen. 14:18-20- “18Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
Yes, a righteous life in which one walks in the path of righteousness and good works are true manifestations of faith in Christ. These are important. I do see your points.
Yes, Abraham obeyed God and made efforts in his walk with Him. I agree with that. Nevertheless, he was blessed with silver and gold, and he didn’t have to give away his entire fortune to help outsiders. And he had male and female servants in his household to take care of him and his cattle.
I sincerely apologise for the misstatements I made regarding Abraham in my previous post, especially regarding Genesis 16.
Sarah (or Sarai) was already barren since Genesis 11, and it may not be wrong for Abraham (or Abram) to have sexual relations with Sarah’s servant Hagar, as I have understood after going through some verses in Leviticus. Also, to be fair, Abraham, because Sarah could not conceive, did not have any child for many many years. Yup, Abraham had great faith, to answer my own question, because he still believed God in Genesis 17-18 regarding a son through Sarah when both he and Sarah were already very old.
Additionally, to give credit to Abraham, he had faith when he obeyed God in leaving his homeland and going around various places living as a foreigner (Hebrews 11).
Nevertheless, Scripture says that Abraham was not justified by works before God (Romans 4). Abraham was considered righteous before he kept the covenant of circumcision. So it isn’t works, though they are important, but faith that God wants to count as righteousness.
Hi Jim,
You have very well explained the meaning of “The Cross”.This is exactly what Jesus expects from ‘Every Christian’ and i hope you will agree that ‘effort’ is required to carry the cross daily.
We are required to follow Jesus with passion and follow ‘His Ministry’ completely ie teaching, preaching, healing of sickness, casting out demons etc.How many of us (christians) follow this ministry ? Very Few, and therefore many are perishing.
In Mat 9:35 Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38 Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.”
God is looking forward to each one of us to follow His Ministry (Complete) and i believe the ‘number’ of Saved People will surely increase.
Romans 8:3-4
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Jesus kept all 613 laws pertaining to the Law given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. This included The Ten Commandments. It all comes as one package. One cannot separate The Ten Commandments from the rest of the Law under the Old Covenant. (See 1 Kings 2:3) When a person receives Christ as Lord and Savior, the fulfillment of the Law given to Moses comes with Him. Therefore, He causes that person to fulfill the Law also, as stated in verse 4. I’m speaking purely of salvation. I’m not talking about a believer’s walk with the Lord. I’m not talking about what happens after a person is saved. So, if one is going to hold up the Ten Commandments as criteria for the believer to remain saved, then, one is required to uphold the rest of the Law also. One will need to buy some lambs without blemish to sacrifice for any sins a person commits. However, they will not be accepted anymore, because the ultimate sacrifice for sin has already come. No other sacrifice will be forthcoming. That person’s sin will remain.
The Lord, in speaking to the Israelites, said this: “Neither shall ye profane my holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel: I am the LORD which hallow you, That brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD.” Leviticus 22:32, 33
That word “hallow” according to a Thesaurus means: consecrate, sanctify, bless, deify, revere, respect, make sacred, make holy. In other words, God is saying to them that He is the One who makes them holy. He is the one who brought them out of Egypt. Sin is our “Egypt”. God brings a person out from sin and He makes that person holy through the sacrifice of His Son. All of it is His doing, not ours. Our job as far AS SALVATION GOES is to believe. God does the rest. Once a person is saved, then, that person should follow Christ’s example. Once a person is saved, then, that person should follow Christ example. Once a person is saved, then, that person should follow Christ example. [Please excuse the repetition, but I wanted to make my point plain. When God wanted to emphasize something, He usually repeated it three times. I thought I would do it, too.]
Jesus is the same, yesterday, Today & forever. To me, that states this the same God of the old testament as the one in the new testament. And he is the same forever. So to state that the Law is no longer important would be untrue. He have it to help guide us just as he kept Adam and eve from eating from the tree of life so that man would not have to live forever in sin. Also he made the angels to do his bidding. But us he wants us to Love him of our own free will. He does not force us to Love him, he commands us to, Just as any good father would say to his child, this is not good and will harm you, don’t do it. That is his great Love for his children. You can not throw away his past for he is the Alpha and you can’t throw him out of the present for he is the one who holds all things together. Not can you toss him out of the future for he is the Omega. All of what he has done is important and all that he is doing today is just as important, for he lives, and tomorrow he is the one whom give us a tomorrow so he will be our God forevermore. I do hope that I make sense to you SD. Love in Christ Jesus,Annette. PS, thank you’all for your prayers, they are helping, please don’t cease in them for the pain is very hard to deal with. Love your sis,Annette
Hi Shanta
Your question”
“what does Jesus mean in Luke 14:27 – “And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” what does “cross” mean here ?”
These are all the verses relating the same words of Jesus, in regard to your question on Luke 14:27
Luk 14:27,28
27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and (COUNTETH THE COST), whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Have we counted the cost of our life in Christ, what is or could be expected of us?
The Cross is symbolic of death and sacrifice.
Mat 10:37-39
37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Following Jesus, could cost you your family.
The Cross is symbolic of death and sacrifice.
Mat. 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
The Cross is symbolic of death and sacrifice.
Mar. 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
The Cross is symbolic of death and sacrifice.
Mar. 10:21
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
The Cross is symbolic of death and sacrifice.
Luk. 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
The Cross is symbolic of death and sacrifice.
Luk. 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
The Cross is symbolic of death and sacrifice, we must deny ourselves, as Jesus did.
Luk_22:42
42) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
This is a daily dying, a sacrificing of ourselves for Christ, that “Gods’ Will” be done, not just in our lives, but in the lives of others.
**********************************************************
A clarification on the numbers:
Let me put it into a perspective for you.
What is the population of India?
What is the population of China?
Out of the total population of those two countries, what do you suppose is the total of Christians?
The point being, that is only the population of India, & China TODAY, the number of unsaved people in relation to Christians, is a staggering number, and the number of Christians is relatively minute.
Now, think of all the people ever born, from the year 1 AD, back to Adam and the year 1 BC, how many of that number attained Salvation in Jesus?
What would be the number of people born, from 1 AD to today, how many in relation to that total number have attained Salvation in Jesus?
The Grand total of people EVER BORN – – Adam to Today, is Billions upon Billions, the number attaining Salvation is a small percentage of that total number.
SOOOOO
Broad is the way which leads to destruction, and many there be that go in there at.
Narrow is the way which leads to Eternal Life, few there be that find it.
Be Blessed
JIM
Hi Doyle
When you say
“Then how would you suppose whether people living in Old Testament times will get eternal life?”
Are you speaking of every person borne in those times, or just those we would call the Patriarchs?
From the sound of the question, you already have the answer, so I am sure you have thoughts on the matter, make your case, and I will respond.
Be Blessed
JIM
This is what Jesus said on the subject:
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:19)
Was Jesus right?
Abraham did made efforts in his walk with the Lord.
Abraham obeyed God
**************************
Gen.12:1 The Lord had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.
Gen. 12:4 So Abram left, as the Lord had told him.
Abraham gives Glory to God
*********************************
Gen. 14:22-23 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’
Abraham believed in the promise of the Lord
***************************************************
Gen 15:4-6 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Hi Doyle,
I would say that one has to accept “All the Teachings” of Jesus Christ to be saved.I cannot choose between ‘His Teachings’ & ‘His Blood’.I accept Jesus as a whole.His teachings lead me to repent for my sins and His Blood washes me of my sins.So now i can stand with our Holy God.
Then how would you suppose whether people living in Old Testament times will get eternal life? Will everyone get it? Or none? Few? Many? Any thoughts on this? Because the bible tells us that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
Jesus fulfilled the will of God because if not, He would not have been the sinless Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
Jesus didn't die in order to give everyone a free pass to live a lawless life, or to be a worker of iniquity. Read Matthew 7:21-23 again.
Having offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice, He can cleanse and give new life and forgive those who desire to come to God and be reconciled. If Jesus didn't suffer and die for us, our past sins would guarantee our condemnation, though we might really wish we had never sinned, and even though we repented of it. Without the blood of Christ, repentance would be of no avail as far as securing the ultimate favour of God.
I think you want to have it both ways. When it suits you, you reject the Old Testament as having any bearing on the way of salvation. But when it suits you, you bring up the sins of the patriarchs who had nothing like the opportunities we have today – to effectively abrogate everything Christ said about true faith and repentance.
But do you want to know something about the faith of Abraham? He waited many many years for a promised son. And then some time after receiving the son, God commanded him to sacrifice his son that he loved. Was it easy to comply with that?
Abraham basically had to believe in a God who makes resurrections happen.
And so must we. We need to believe that if we lay down our lives for His sake and the gospels, we will have it back again in resurrection life. For otherwise, we will surely seek to save our lives – and thereby lose them.
Hi there !!
You have explained ‘the narrow gate’.I want to add that It is not just ‘Choosing Jesus’ but ‘Following Jesus’ is a true Christian Life” .Also can you explain what does Jesus mean in Luke 14:27 – “And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” what does “cross” mean here ?
I don’t know how many (numbers) people will make to Heaven..but in regard to amount of people who were saved in Noah’s Ark, this is what the Lord said in Genesis 8:21 – “And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.”
Also in John 14:2 Jesus says – “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” This assures us that “MANY” will make it to Heaven.
Hi Doyle
When you say:
1) “In the first covenant, people have to obey the entire law of Moses to be saved.”
No one was ever, or could be saved, by obeying the Law of Moses.
Salvation was not offered to the Jewish Nation, it was a concept foreign to them, never mentioned in the Old Testament.
2) “In the second covenant, people are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.”
Eph_2:8
For (BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED) – (THROUGH FAITH); and that not of yourselves: (IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD):
Be Blessed
JIM
Within the same portion of Scripture that discusses ‘The Narrow Door’, Luke 13:28 (NIV) says that we will see “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God”. But were all of these people perfect? For one, even Abraham, the father of faith, was not perfect. Twice, Abraham deceived a person of authority. Abraham (or Abram) first deceived Pharaoh by saying that Sarah (or Sarai) was his sister. But judgment did not fall on Abraham. Instead, judgment fell on Pharaoh and his household when terrible plagues descended on them (Genesis 12:17). Did the LORD judge the wrong person?!?!
Abraham did not learn his lesson the first time and again he deceived Abimelech king of Gerar by saying that Sarah was his sister in Genesis 20. And again, the LORD seemed to have judged the wrong person. Genesis 20:18 (NIV) tells us that “the LORD had closed up every womb in Abimelech’s household”, but no curse fell on Abraham. Instead, “Abimelech brought sheep and cattle and male and female slaves and gave them to Abraham” (Genesis 20:14) and Abimelech also gave Abraham “a thousand shekels of silver” (Genesis 20:16). Abimelech also told Abraham in Genesis 20:15 that “My land is before you; live wherever you like.” What is happening here?!?! Abraham is greatly blessed for his wrongdoing?!?! And Abimelech’s household is cursed although Abimelech is innocent?!?!
How then can it be said that Abraham made “every effort to enter through the narrow door” (Luke 13:24 NIV)? What Abraham did was wrong because he caused two persons of authority to be deceived and Leviticus 19:11 (NIV) says, “Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.” Furthermore, Abraham made the same mistake not once, but twice. Abraham did obey God in obeying the covenant of circumcision and obeying to offer to sacrifice Isaac. However, circumcision is but a one-time event for a male. And offering to sacrifice Isaac was also a one-time event.
How much effort did Abraham really have to put in to be righteous? Apparently, Abraham (or Abram) was considered righteous just by him believing God. How much labour did this take? It is written in Genesis 15:6 (NIV), “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.”
And was Abraham (or Abram) entirely right in agreeing with Sarah (or Sarai) to produce a child through Sarah’s servant Hagar and then having sexual relations with Hagar in Genesis 16? Is not Sarah Abraham’s wife, and through whom Abraham’s promised son and subsequently future descendants are supposed to be born? Is the action of Abraham in Genesis 16 an example of making “every effort to enter through the narrow door” (Luke 13:24 NIV)? And is this truly great faith?
You are right. Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law. He actually is the only person who could fulfill the entire law, which includes The Ten Commandments. But, for what purpose did He fulfill it? Did He do it just for Himself?
Hi Shanta
When you say:
“Jesus is inviting us to enter through the narrow gate.This may not be easy but it will lead us to Everlasting Life.”
It sounds like you are saying we have to work or earn our way into Heaven.
When Jesus made this statement about the gate, He was speaking to the crowds of people who were all UNSAVED, He was not speaking of the time after our salvation, that there were things we would have to do in order to enter at the straight gate, He was saying that “HE WAS” the straight gate, the narrow way, the only way.
In relation to the narrow way, and the straight gate, Jesus said.
Mat 7:13,14
13) (ENTER YE IN AT THE STRAIGHT GATE): for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
In the Greek, the words (Gate & Door) are synonymous, they are both openings for entry.
For Jesus is the straight gate, and the narrow way, which leads “US” to (SALVATION) (LIFE), and in relation to the total amount of people who have lived in the past and the amount who will live in the future, those which attain Salvation are but a FEW out of that total number.
Think about the number of people who died in the flood, compared to the amount who were saved by the Ark, same type of thing.
Joh. 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, (I AM THE DOOR) (OF THE SHEEP)
Joh. 10:27
(MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE), and I know them, (AND THEY FOLLOW ME):
Joh_. 0:9
(I AM THE DOOR): (BY ME IF ANY MAN ENTER IN), he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Be Blessed
JIM
have never been under jewish law,only grace,but the 10 commandments are still binding,Jesus said he didnot come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.there are no loopholes for sin, holiness or hell
In the first covenant, people have to obey the entire law of Moses to be saved. In the second covenant, people are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and do good works out of the firm foundation of salvation based on this faith.
It’s good that you are not under the law. While good works of the law are important, justification by faith in the second covenant is still central.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV) says that “a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ”.
On who Jesus is, he is the Son of God, the perfect Lamb who came in human flesh to die for our sins. Matthew 20:28 (KJV) says that “the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Faith without works is dead. If we say we believe in Jesus, but do not do the things which he says, we are lost, for our faith is dead and so is our hope.
In the context of the second covenant, “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Romans 3:28 KJV). Justification by faith in the second covenant is higher than justification by “the deeds of the law”.
The teachings of Jesus are good, but can his teachings save mankind? If his teachings can save mankind, why did Jesus have to go through crucifixion? Did Jesus die for nothing?
Which is higher in value? The teachings of Jesus or the shed blood of Jesus?
“….everybody was under the law of Moses, including Jesus himself.”
Can you explain for those of us who don’t know for sure who Jesus is and the others too?
Hi Doyle
This is a repost to your question I answered 03/21/2012 – 20:42.
Your question:
” Who did Jesus say is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Answer:
Mat. 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 18:4
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Be Blessed
JIM
I do know what is written in the letters of John. We are told to live righteously, not to keep on sinning, not to love the things of this world, that true prophets must preach that Christ came in the flesh, etc., etc..
However, I would like to pose this question: Who did Jesus say is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Is it the Pharisees? Or teachers of religious law? Or priests? Or kings and governors? Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
It is true that only because of Jesus Christ we are able to stand with a Holy God, however this has not changed God’s Holy Standard.
Mat. 7:13 – “”Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”
Jesus is inviting us to enter through the narrow gate.This may not be easy but it will lead us to Everlasting Life.
Romans 3:10,12 (KJV) writes, “It is written, There is none righteous, no, not one … There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Romans 3:19 tells us that the law was given to show that everybody is guilty of sin.
It is written in Romans 3:19 (KJV) that “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” By implication, this means that no one can enter heaven apart from God’s grace.
Indeed, if God is going to go by his holy standard of the law of Moses, no one will enter heaven, not even Moses who killed an Egyptian or Paul who persecuted early Christians to death, for they both broke the sixth commandment. In fact, there will be no man in heaven but Jesus. This is how narrow the law of Moses makes the gates of heaven.
But by the grace of God, it is written in Hebrews 10:17 (KJV), “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”
When a person is all messed up, morally depraved and full of sin, God does NOT say: "Clean up your act and then you can be right with Me." NO. This is why a person is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Until we have FAITH, nothing we do is actually acceptable to God.
The first thing is then to trust that Jesus has paid for all past sin and commit oneself to the Jesus as Lord and Savior – SAVIOR FROM SIN, NO LESS.
However, once we are justified by faith, we must turn to God. If we do NOT do this – if we turn to ungodly lusts and thumb our noses at God's Word, and do not confess and turn from dead works, we will NOT remain in a justified state.
REAL FAITH, the kind God recognises, presupposes that the person not only believes in God's existence, but ALSO that He is a "rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" – see Hebrews 11:6.
Beware of false ideas of what faith is. A faith which doesn't change your orientation towards God is a dead faith. True faith unites a person with a HOLY God. The Spirit of God then teaches a person to deny ungodly lusts and delight in the Lord.
If this is NOT happening, then I sincerely doubt if a person is abiding in Christ. Such a person is given time to repent, but basically Jesus said that a person who does not remain in Him will end up in the FIRE. Read John 15 and the ENTIRE letter of 1 John, especially chapters 1,2 and 3.
In seeking to know God's will, we cannot base it essentially on the Old Testament law because that would lead us astray. But what you are saying is that we cannot trust what Jesus said in the gospels, which is about half of the New Testament!
Then after we also cut out the Book of Revelation "Fear God and keep His commandments" were the words of the gospel there (presumably because it refers to some future dispensation) we are left with the epistles.
These epistles (letters) tell us that people who live in a certain kind of way, though they call themselves Christians, WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN.
But if you throw all those verses out ALSO, like you do with the gospels, and the Old Testament, you can pick on a few verses ripped from their context like Ephesians 2:8,9; Acts 13:35,36 and a couple of verses in Titus, REDEFINE THE MEANINGS OF THE WORDS USED, and then make that your ENTIRE DOCTRINE.
This approach to the Bible has less integrity than the approach of say the Jehovah's Witnesses. You are just picking and choosing Scripture to create your own false doctrine. Much wiser to repent.
Jesus said that HIS WORDS will judge you on the last days.
Beware lest your sweet dreams are just an unbiblical fantasy.
As for Jesus' yoke being light, this is true. You need to seek the Spirit of God out on a daily basis, and then He makes it a lot easier. He makes possible and relatively enjoyable what would have been IMPOSSIBLE and torturous.
Effortless, in my opinion, could mean a certain inner rest when we see the mercy and faithfulness of our LORD.
Psalms 36:5 (NIV) says, “Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.” In the KJV, Psalms 36:5 reads, “Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.”
Regarding Luke 13:24 (NIV) where it says to “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door”, we should bear in mind that Jesus said this when everybody was under the law of Moses, including Jesus himself. Galatians 4:4 (NIV) says that Jesus was “born under law”. However, the book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus set aside the first covenant of the law of Moses and established a better second covenant when he died on the cross.
Compared to the first covenant in which one is justified by the law of Moses, the second covenant in which justification is by faith is indeed better and promotes a certain inner rest. With this inner rest, the yoke will not be so heavy and it will be easier to live a holy life. Matthew 11:30 (NIV) says, “For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
By the way, Jesus himself spoke to Saul (later renamed Paul) in Acts 9:5, so what Paul preached subsequently could not be against what Jesus had wanted.
Romans chapter 4 discusses “righteousness apart from works”.
Romans 4:6-8 (NIV): David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”
Romans 4:23-24 (NIV): The words “it was credited to him [Abraham]” were not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness – for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
Regarding the law, while we follow Jesus’ teachings about living a godly life, it is not our works in doing what the law tells us to do that God will credit to us as righteousness, but our belief in Jesus Christ. Romans 4:4 (NIV) says, “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.” However, Romans 4:5 (NIV) continues by saying that “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
Regarding people who may go to hell, I was referring to people who may be siding very strongly with Satan in trying to destroy the church. I think it is okay to guide and to instruct, and to study the bible to learn the truth for ourselves. The word “edify” in Romans 14:19 (KJV) is a positive word, and speaks of building people up.
Regarding salvation, just because a person has failed does not mean that he will not be saved because God is very gracious. Moses killed an Egyptian in Exodus 2, but God still chose him to be the representative of the Israelites before Him. Although Paul “persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison” (Acts 22:4 NIV), God by His marvellous grace still used him to minister to the early churches.
I am truly sorry if I have offended people in my posts. We are only human and may sometimes say or write things that may be hurtful to others. Do forgive me.
Did you find something in my posts which suggest that I am teaching one must adhere to all the laws of Moses in order to be saved?
You write:
For Satan cannot bring any accusations against God's people unless there is a standard by which he can measure them, and that standard would be the law from the books of Moses. And who knows, by being Satan's close ally, that person may be thrown into hell together with Satan to spend his eternal life. For it is written in James 2:13 (KJV) that "he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy".
Satan can bring accusations based on any violation of the moral law of God. In order to overcome we need to believe in the blood of Christ, and we need to turn AWAY from the sin. We can't serve Satan with our lives and somehow claim the protection of the blood of Christ.
I really wonder if you are trying to hint to me that I am not saved, because I believe that God requires repentance. What I seek to do on this site is teach truth, and expose error. What people do with it is their choice, and how God judges will be God's choice.
I think its possible to get a good idea of how God will judge by reading the entire New Testament with a good deal of attention. I believe God has told us the truth about this in the New Testament, for the purpose of salvation.
Greek is Greek and English is English. They are two different languages with different words and punctuation marks. And the KJV is an authoritative translation of the original languages of the bible. Unless you want to challenge the authority and interpretation of the KJV. I am only interpreting the KJV version of Revelations 12:11.
If one insists on holding on to the law from the books of Moses and thinks that he can keep God’s entire holy standard without breaking it in even the smallest way, he would be exalting himself and putting himself on the same level as God. Only the Son of God Jesus Christ can keep God’s entire holy standard of the law from the books of Moses.
It is written in Galatians 2:16 (KJV), “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
In no way did Revelations 12:11 mention how the efforts of God’s people in keeping the entire standard of the law from the books of Moses saved them from Satan’s accusations. Instead, Revelations 12:10 (KJV) says that Satan “the accuser of our brethren … accused them before our God day and night.” If one wants to rely on himself and wants to find justification through the law instead of “the blood of the Lamb” (Revelations 12:11), then he would be “accused … before our God day and night” (Revelations 12:10 KJV).
And if one chooses to use the law from the books of Moses to strongly come against the church when it is written in Galatians 3:25 (NIV) that “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law”, then that person may be found to be Satan’s ally. For Satan cannot bring any accusations against God’s people unless there is a standard by which he can measure them, and that standard would be the law from the books of Moses. And who knows, by being Satan’s close ally, that person may be thrown into hell together with Satan to spend his eternal life. For it is written in James 2:13 (KJV) that “he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy”.
Lastly, Romans 14:19 (KJV) says, “Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.” Therefore, let us not destroy the body of Christ, but instead build up the body of Christ.
Did you know that? Now I think you are really clutching at straws. Do you understand what is meant by "context" in interpreting the Scriptures? Its really important to look at what is around the words, like the whole sentence, paragraph or even surrounding paragrpahs. We are still in the same sentence and yet you think the semi colon means that a person can love their life here and now, compromise with sin to save it, and still overcome Satan? I hope its working out well for such people, but honestly, you don't overcome Satan without some serious self denial and dedication to the Word of God.
In 1 Kings 3, the Lord was pleased with King Solomon and told him in verse 13 that “I will give you what you have not asked for – both riches and honor – so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings.” The Lord was pleased because King Solomon had asked for “a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong” (1 Kings 3:9 NIV), and not “long life or wealth for yourself, nor … the death of your enemies” (1 Kings 3:11 NIV).
If riches go against wisdom, the Lord himself would not have given King Solomon “both riches and honor” (1 Kings 3:13 NIV) with “no equal among kings” (1 Kings 3:13 NIV). The fact that the Lord God gave King Solomon great riches with “no equal among kings” means that great riches cannot be a bad thing in and of itself.
The only conditional promise that the Lord gave King Solomon was that regarding a long life. 1 Kings 3:14 (NIV) tells us that the Lord will give King Solomon a long life “if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands”. However, the condition to “walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands” was in no way related to the “riches and honor” that the Lord had already granted him.
In Proverbs 8, we learn that wisdom does have its benefits. Proverbs 8:17-18, 20-21 (NIV) reads, “I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity. … I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full.” From here, we learn that those who seek and get wisdom will become wealthy and prosperous. In fact, their treasuries will get filled up. Therefore, riches do not disagree with wisdom because wisdom leads to financial riches.
As you can plainly see, a semicolon separates the front portion of Revelations 12:11 (KJV) from the back portion of the verse. It is not a comma, but a semicolon that is used. A semicolon, if you don’t know, indicates a separation of ideas that are related to each other. A comma could have been used instead of a semicolon in the KJV of Revelations 12:11, but it is not.
What the back portion of Revelations 12:11 (KJV) “and they loved not their lives unto the death” means is that they, our brethren, placed such strong and absolute faith upon “the blood of the Lamb”, testifying to it with their own words, that they would not abandon their faith in “the blood of the Lamb” even “unto the death”.
Therefore, Revelations 12:11 tells us that it is strong and absolute faith in “the blood of the Lamb” alone that overcame Satan the accuser.
It is written in Hebrews 10:10 (NLT) that “God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, ONCE FOR ALL TIME.” All time means what it means, literally all time.
It is written in Hebrews 10:12 (NLT) that “our High Priest offered himself to God as a SINGLE sacrifice for sins, GOOD FOR ALL TIME.” All time means what it means, literally all time.
It is written in Hebrews 10:14 (NLT) that “by that ONE offering he FOREVER made perfect those who are being made holy.” Forever means forever, if forever is not forever, then forever is no longer forever, so forever has to mean forever.
Amen! Hallelulah! All praise be to God!
Let us turn to Galatians chapter 4. Galatians chapter 4 (KJV) tells us that the Son of God Jesus was “made under the law” and that he came to “redeem them that were under the law”.
It is written in Galatians 4:3-5 (KJV) that “Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”
Galatians 4:7 (KJV) also speaks of being “an heir of God”. Galatians 4:7 (KJV) says, “Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”
The apostle Paul was God’s chosen apostle to minister to the Gentiles and to minister in a big way to the various early churches. If we were to put aside the God-appointed apostle Paul’s teaching that “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Romans 3:28 KJV), then we would be denying God’s authority and sovereignty in choosing the apostle Paul who was chosen by the Lord Himself to preach this message.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The only people who overcome through the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony are those who love not their lives unto death.
The reason for this is clear: Jesus said, “Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s shall find it.”
God does not promise victory and overcoming to those who love the ways of sin more than the presence and purity of God, nor to those who refuse to testify to Jesus Christ with their mouth.
I can easily prove the above from the words of Jesus in the gospels. Matthew 10 would be a great place to start.
See, we should all agree that the Lord delights in mercy. The issue at stake, and which won't go away actually, is what the Scripture reveals about the conditions under which God generally grants mercy (if there are any conditions, besides believing that God once granted you mercy).
The whole issue becomes clear when we are willing to define what we mean by the words and phrases we use. Otherwise, a kind of fog of confusion allows people to deceive themselves.
It is written in Revelations 12:11 (KJV) that “they [our brethren] overcame him [the accuser] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony”.
Two things overcame Satan “the accuser of our brethren” (Revelations 12:10 KJV): one, the blood of the Lamb and two, the word of their testimony.
There is no mention of the law from the books of Moses and how our brethren measured up to its entirety.
Instead, it is written in Revelations 12:11 (KJV) that “they [our brethren] overcame him [the accuser] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony”.
Hallelujah! All praise be to the Lamb of God!
“I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:” Revelation II:II
Between mercy and judgment, God’s heart is for mercy rather than judgment. In Exodus 32:14, we see that the Lord was persuaded to spare judgment on the Israelites despite them turning away from God and making a golden calf their god instead.
It is written in James 2:13 (KJV) that “he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
1. We see that God had mercy on Ninevah because they repented. Otherwise He had actually announced He would destroy them.
2. Indeed if anyone seeks justification or sanctification by their natural human ability they will certainly fail.
3. Does not being "under the law" imply that God doesn't mind if you wilfully worship other gods, take God's name in vain, dishonor your parents, commit adultery, steal, lie, cheat etc? When tempted with such activities, can a Christian who is "not under the law" rest easy knowing that his standing with God will remain intact no matter how much they fall into these kinds of sins?
4. Is it speaking of being under the law of Moses or under the law of love? Are Christians under the law of love, or not?
5. Is it possible to be "not under the law" if you are NOT led by the Spirit of God?
We just have to turn away from thinking that any human being can possibly keep the entire law in the books of Moses by their old self and look “unto Jesus [who is] the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2 KJV). And we also do Ephesians 4:22-24 which is to put off the old self, renew the “spirit of your mind”, and put on the new nature.
Any more theological issues I think the day will come when Jesus returns and we get to sort things out better. I just hope that Jesus will come back soon so that we can live in a restored world.
What I understand by ‘under the law’ is that of trying to seek justification before the Lord based on the natural human ability which has a sin nature to it and which is not all-powerful unlike God to fulfil every single word of the commands and instructions given to the people through Moses on Mount Sinai.
Deuteronomy 28:58-59 (KJV) says, “If thou wilt not observe to do ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.”
Deuteronomy chapter 5 records the Ten Commandments for God’s people who are supposed to observe them. There are also further instructions and regulations in the subsequent chapters in Deuteronomy.
However, the reality is that no human being by his fallen natural self, other than the Son of God, can keep the entire law perfectly, which was what was required by the covenant ratified on Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 28:15 says that all commands and decrees are to be followed otherwise all curses will come). There are numerous accounts of how the Israelites in the Old Testament turned to worshiping idols instead, breaking the first two commandments.
But God even in the Old Testament was rich in mercy. In the Old Testament book of Jonah, God actually intended to destroy the city of Nineveh. But when the people of Nineveh “turned from their evil way” (Jonah 3:10 KJV), God decided not to proceed with his original plan and did not destroy them.
So in a way you are saying that the old law is fulfilled so the new statutes and guidelines, are there to help us see how to live a Godly life. But many of the things were written to help those who walked as enemies of God and now had accepted him as their savior, . They were to help them not fall back into that lifestyle they once lived . We are to try or strive to be perfect, still! So Lawlessness makes sence to me. How can you believe that you are washed clean an have not asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins? For Jesus said to ask and you shall recieve, so if we don’t ask, we dont get forgiveness.
The verses that instruct us, I think, do help us to lead a godly life and encourage us to do good. They guide us in how we should live a meaningful life.
But the theme in the New Testament is that God does not want us to find our justification in thinking that by ourselves we can meet the entire law written in the books of Moses and engraved in God’s own handwriting on the stone tablets.
James 2:10 is written in the context of the Ten Commandments, in light of the subsequent verse James 2:11 which talks about murder and adultery. And James 2:10 (NIV) says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking ALL of it”. Yet how many of us can even keep the “first and greatest commandment” (Matthew 22:38 NIV) which is to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” (Matthew 22:37 NIV) without wavering?
I think that God wants us to see that no one other than the Son of God Jesus himself can keep the entire law given to the people through Moses perfectly. And instead believe in the person of Jesus Christ, by whose blood all our sins are forgiven. So in my opinion, the focus is not so much on justifying ourselves based on whether we fail or whether we can do a lot, but rather doing on good things out of the new life in Christ.
Galatians 4:4-5 (NIV) reads, “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.” These verses reveal that when Jesus, the Son of God, was on this earth, He Himself was “under law”, but that He was to “redeem those under law”.
The redemption of those under law would come only after Jesus dies on the cross, after His blood is shed. As Hebrews 9:22 (NIV) tells us, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”. Therefore, for there to be forgiveness of sins in the second covenant, and for the Holy Spirit to say of the second covenant, “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more” (Hebrews 10:17 NIV), blood has to be shed. In the case of the second covenant, it is the blood of the sinless and perfect Lamb of God.
Hebrews 9:18 (NIV) says that “even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.” Similarly, this means that for Christ to “set[s] aside the first [covenant] to establish the second [covenant]”, as it says in Hebrews 10:9 (NIV), blood would also be needed. If blood is needed to ratify the first covenant from Mount Sinai (in Exodus 24, young bulls were sacrificed and blood was sprinkled on both the altar and the people), equally blood would be needed to ratify the second covenant that allows believers to be “made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10 NIV).
Thus, it is only when Christ died and his blood was shed that Christ “redeem[ed] those under law” (Galatians 4: 5 NIV) and believers who put their faith in Him are “made holy … once for all” (Hebrews 10:10 NIV). In the NLT translation, Hebrews 10:10 says that “God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.”
To redeem means to buy back or to rescue. Therefore when Galatians 4:5 (NIV) says “to redeem those under law”, it means to buy back or rescue those people who are under the system of the written law. To understand what it means to be under law as Jesus was (Jesus was “born under law” as Galatians 4:4 NIV states), we have to understand more about the period that Jesus was born into. It was the period in which the Christian church was not yet born, the period of Judaism in which Christianity and the early churches had not yet come into the full glory of God. It was the period in which the people were bound by the covenant from Mount Sinai which was binding on both God and the people as the blood of young bulls was sprinkled on both the altar and the people (Exodus 24). The people were bound to “FULLY obey the LORD your God and carefully follow ALL his commands” (Deuteronomy 28:1 NIV) and if they do so, then God will give them “ALL these blessings” (Deuteronomy 28:2) mentioned in Deuteronomy 28:3-13. Conversely, if the people “do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow ALL his commands and decrees” (Deuteronomy 28:15 NIV), then God will allow “All these curses” (Deuteronomy 28:15) mentioned in Deuteronomy 28:16-68 to come upon them. The two scenarios described seem rather extreme: obey ALL the commands and ALL the blessings will come; do not obey ALL the commands and ALL the curses will come. This is God’s standard that the people were bound to keep from the covenant from Mount Sinai where Moses received the commands and instructions from God on behalf of the people.
It is clear that to be “born under law” as Jesus was (Galatians 4:4 NIV) is to be under the old covenant “from Mount Sinai” (Galatians 4:24 NIV). Galatians 4:31 (NIV) says, “we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman”. We are told in Galatians 4:23-24 that the slave woman and the free woman can be taken to represent the two covenants. Galatians 4:24 (NIV) explicitly states that the slave woman Hagar represents the covenant “from Mount Sinai”. This leaves the free woman Sarah to represent the second covenant Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross established, as stated in Hebrews 10:9-10.
As Galatians 4:31 says that we are now children of the free woman Sarah, and the free woman Sarah represents the second covenant, this means that we are now children under the second covenant. Continuing on, since the first covenant was set aside (or “taketh away” as the KJV puts it in Hebrews 10:9) and the second covenant established only upon Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, as Hebrews 10:9-10 (NIV) states, this means that before Jesus’ crucifixion, the first covenant “from Mount Sinai” (Galatians 4:24 NIV) was in place and was the order of the day. This first covenant “from Mount Sinai” (Galatians 4:24 NIV) was what Jesus was born into when Galatians 4:4 (NIV) says that the Son of God, Jesus, was “born under law”. Thus, to be under law means to be under the first covenant “from Mount Sinai”. If we still want to keep every written word of the first covenant “from Mount Sinai”, then we would be under law and “children of the slave woman” (Galatians 4:31 NIV), and not under the second covenant. The commands and instructions of the first covenant “from Mount Sinai” are written down by Moses in what are now the first five books of the bible. The commands can also be found in the two stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments which were placed in the Ark of the Covenant below the mercy seat. Galatians 5:4 (NIV) states, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
The fact that the Son of God, Jesus, was “born under law”, as Galatians 4:4 (NIV) tells us, explains why Jesus upheld the standards of the written law, and even raised the standards to a higher level during his ministry on earth. In the gospel according to Matthew, Matthew records in chapter 5 verses 21-22 (NIV) Jesus teaching the people saying “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” Nowhere in the books of Moses, the first five books of the bible, does Moses record that “anyone who is angry with his brother … will be subject to judgment”, just like anyone who has committed murder. In Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus put being angry with a brother on the same level as committing murder.
Similarly, Jesus raised the standard of the written law in Matthew 5:27-28 (NIV) where it says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Again, nowhere in the first five books of the bible does it say that just by “look[ing] at a woman lustfully”, adultery has already been committed. Clearly, here Jesus raised the standard of the law given to the people through Moses.
From the above two examples of Jesus’ teaching in Matthew chapter 5, we also see that Jesus is interested in the heart. Anger is an emotion rather than an act and thus is related to the inside of a person, the heart. In Matthew 5:28, we see that Jesus mentions the “heart”. In Ezekiel 36:26 (NIV), prophet Ezekiel records these words from the Lord, “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.” Clearly, we see that the Lord desires for a heart change of the people.
In Ezekiel 36:26, prophet Ezekiel was prophesying about events that would take place in the future. In Acts 1:8 (NIV), Jesus after his crucifixion and before he was taken up into the sky told the apostles that “you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you”. The end of John chapter 15 also speaks of the coming of the Holy Spirit when it says, “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me” (John 15:26 NIV). From Acts 1:8 and John 15:26, we learn that the Holy Spirit, referred to as the Counselor and the Spirit of truth in John 15:26, will come from the Father some time after Jesus said what he said in John chapter 15, and more specifically some time after Jesus is taken up to heaven, for Jesus ascended up just after he made the statement in Acts 1:8.
In Hebrews 10:16, we also learn that the new covenant involves the hearts of people, thus fulfilling what prophet Ezekiel writes in Ezekiel 36:26. Hebrews 10:16-17 (NIV) records the Holy Spirit saying, ‘ “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” Then he adds: Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” ’
The new covenant involves a change on the inside. We have a “new heart … of flesh” and not “of stone” in which the Lord will put his laws inside (Hebrews 10:16) and a “new spirit” (Ezekiel 36:26). The Spirit is what causes us to change into the image of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (KJV) says, “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
Dear Sweetdreams, please answer my questions that I asked you earlier. They were basically : why did Jesus say, “If you Love me keep my commandments and Go and sin no more”? Why were we told to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart strength soul and mind and to Love your neighbor as yourself.”We are not to drink blood and to do all things without groaning and complaining and many many more commands were given to us. I just want to know how these can be ignored or removed from the Bible? Even if you cut them out they are still in my mind and heart and I will not turn my head and pretend that they are in there. I just want a simple answer, Love in Christ Jesus, Annette
Please precisely define what you understand by the words "under the law". This is crucial to the whole issue. Please just define it, no need to write an essay on this point.
In Luke chapter 15, we see the heart of the good shepherd who is our Lord Jesus Christ. When one sheep of a flock of one hundred is missing, he would leave the ninety-nine and go and find the lost sheep. And when he finds the lost sheep, he “joyfully puts it on his shoulders” (Luke 15:5) and calls his friends and neighbours to rejoice with him. In the same way, we should be happy for people who have heard about the goodness of the Lord and are attending church services for they were lost but are found.
Luke chapter 15 also contains Jesus’ parable of the lost son. When his younger son returned home having wasted away all of his inheritance of property and wealth, his father did not rebuke him in anyway. There were no harsh or angry words spoken to this younger son. Rather, the father gave instructions to the servants in the house to clothe this younger son with the “best robe”, have “a ring [put] on his finger and sandals on his feet” (Luke 15:22). Also, the father instructed for the fattened calf to be killed and a feast to be held. They would have a celebration. There was even “music and dancing” (Luke 15:25) in the house. Similarly, should not there be “music and dancing” and celebration in the church, the house of God? Why should we angry and displeased like the older son was? Instead of being angry that he did not get “even a young goat” to celebrate with friends the entire time he was “slaving” for his father, should not the older son join in the celebration and feast on the fattened calf too? Luke 15:31-32 (NIV) reads, “ ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”
Galatians chapter 6 does tell us that following the sinful nature will lead to destruction, whereas doing good will lead to eternal life and a harvest of rewards. Galatians 6:8-9 (NIV) reads, “The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the ones who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
However, before Paul gets to chapter 5 of his letter to the Galatian church where he contrasts the results of the sinful nature with the fruit of the Holy Spirit and urges us to “not become weary in doing good” in chapter 6, he writes from Galatians chapter 1 all the way to the first part of Galatians chapter 5 about the true gospel that gives us freedom. Galatians 1:6 (NIV) says, “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel – which is really no gospel at all.” In Galatians 1:9 (NIV), Paul boldly writes, “As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned.”
In Galatians chapter 2, Paul informs the Galatian church that God was with Paul and Peter in their ministry to the Gentiles and to the Jews respectively. Paul in Galatians 2:7-8 (NIV) writes, “they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.” In the second part of Galatians chapter 2, Paul confronts Peter in front of the people, making the following statement: “So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified” (Galatians 2:16 NIV).
Paul begins Galatians chapter 3 by exclaiming, “You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?” (Galatians 3:1 NIV) “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? … Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?” (Galatians 3:3,5 NIV)
Paul then touches on belief and righteousness in Galatians 3:6-7 (NIV) where he writes, “Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.” From here, we see that we are to believe God as Abraham did in Genesis 15:6 to have righteousness, as Paul was quoting from Genesis 15:6 here.
In Genesis chapter 15, God appeared to Abram (later renamed Abraham) in a vision and Abram told the LORD that “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir” (Genesis 15:3 NIV). But in verse 4 of Genesis 15, the LORD told him that “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” Then in verse 5, the LORD ‘took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars – if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” ’
Next comes verse 6, “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness” (Genesis 15:6 NIV). There is no obedience to any instruction here. This was before the promised son Isaac was even born and Abraham obeyed God and went up a mountain in the region of Moriah to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Yet, God considered Abram righteous in Genesis 15:6. Genesis 15:6 is a simple and straightforward verse. Just by Abram believing the Lord, the Lord counted it as righteousness.
Paul tells us clearly in Galatians 3:10 (NIV) that “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse”. In the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy, we see that the Israelites had to obey all that the LORD God commands to be blessed. Deuteronomy 28:1-2 (NIV) says, “If you FULLY obey the LORD your God and carefully follow ALL his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. ALL these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God”. Following these two verses, the blessings that can be gained by obeying the commands are described. Deuteronomy 28:1-2 contrasts with Deuteronomy 28:15 where it says, “However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow ALL his commands and decrees I am giving you today, ALL these curses will come upon you and overtake you”. Following verse 15, numerous curses are described and these curses are described in much more detail than the blessings described earlier. Deuteronomy 28:58-59 further says, “If you do not carefully follow ALL THE WORDS of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name – the LORD your God – the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses.” Clearly, Deuteronomy chapter 28 paints an all or nothing scenario and a very high standard to keep. If the people obey ALL the commands, they will be blessed. If not, ALL the curses will fall upon them. James 2:10 (NIV) also shows us how the law works as an entire whole: “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking ALL of it.”
Therefore, it is not easy to be justified by the law. In verse 11 of Galatians 3, Paul writes, ‘Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” ’ In verses 21-25 of Galatians chapter 3, Paul explains what we have received through faith in Jesus Christ. Paul discusses justification by faith verse righteousness that supposedly comes by the law. Galatians 5:22,23 (NIV) says, “the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin … Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.” Paul than reveals the purpose of the law in Galatians 5:24 (NIV) when he says, “So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.” In other words, the law was meant to lead us to the person of Jesus Christ, that we may be justified by faith in him, and not be justified by the law.
In Galatians chapter 4, Paul tells the people “who want to be under the law” (Galatians 4:21) that the two covenants can be represented by the women. These women would be Hagar and Sarah for Galatians 4:22-23 (NIV) says, “it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as a result of a promise.” The free woman who bore a son through a promise would be Sarah. In Genesis chapter 18, we learn that a son was promised to Sarah although she was “past the age of childbearing” (Genesis 18:11 NIV). The LORD told Abraham that “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son” (Genesis 18:10 NIV).
In Galatians 4:24 (NIV), this is what Paul says, “One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.” However, in verse 28, Paul says that “you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise” which is a distinction from the children of Hagar, who are to be “slaves”. Galatians 4:30 then tells us that the free woman’s son has an inheritance and that the slave woman’s son is to have no part in it when Paul quotes from Genesis, “the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
At first, before Jesus died on the cross, the first covenant in which the people had to obey all of God’s commands was in place. And according to Galatians 4:24, this means that the people who lived before Jesus’ time were “slaves”; this ties in with the idea that “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed” (Galatians 3:23 NIV). And from Galatians 4:30, we also learn that the children of the first covenant do not have any share in the inheritance that the “free woman’s son” will get. Hagar is the maidservant of Sarai (later renamed Sarah) who bore “the slave woman’s son” (Galatians 4:30) Ismael through Abram (later renamed Abraham). Since Galatians 4:24 tells us that the covenant from Mount Sinai is represented by Hagar, this means the “slave woman’s son” represents children of the covenant from Mount Sinai, the first covenant of having to obey all that God commands in order to be blessed.
However, upon Jesus death, the second covenant was put into effect. Hebrews 10:9-10 (NLT) says, “He CANCELS THE FIRST COVENANT in order to put the second into effect. For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time”. The “sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ” speaks of Jesus’ death on the cross. Hebrews 9:16-17 explains why Jesus had to die for the second covenant to take effect. Hebrews 9:16-17 (NIV) reads, “In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.”
In essence, Paul is telling the people “who want to be under the law” (Galatians 4:21 NIV) that “we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free” (Galatians 4:31). In other words, we are no longer under the first covenant, but under the second. If we remain in the first covenant, we would be “slaves” (Galatians 4:24) and “will never share in the inheritance” (Galatians 4:30). However, those who are under the second covenant have an inheritance that the “free woman’s son” will get, according to Galatians 4:30. The free woman is the one who bore a son as a result of a promise and she would be Sarah, as discussed earlier. Since the slave woman Hagar represents the covenant from Mount Sinai, this leaves the free woman Sarah to represent the covenant put in place by Jesus’ death on the cross, the second covenant. As the free woman Sarah represents the second covenant, the “free woman’s son” in Galatians 4:30 would be the children of the second covenant. Romans 8:17 (NIV) also gives us the idea of inheritance for it says, “Now if we are children, then we are heirs – heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ”.
Therefore, by using the slave woman and the free woman to illustrate the two covenants, Paul shows the people “who want to be under the law” (Galatians 4:21 NIV) that it is better to be under the second covenant, not the first. Furthermore, if we go to the book of Hebrews which tells us that the first covenant has already been cancelled or SET ASIDE (as the NIV version puts it in Hebrews 10:9), we have no reason to put ourselves under the first covenant.
Having illustrated the two covenants in Galatians chapter 4, Paul writes, “Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law” (Galatians 5:1 NLT). Paul continues in Galatians 5:4 (NIV) by writing, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
It is true that Christians ought to “conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ” (Philippians 1:27 NIV). Also, it is written that “the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world” (Titus 2:11-12 KJV). However, as Titus 2:11-12 (KJV) tells us, it is “the grace of God” that teaches us. It is only after thoroughly explaining that “a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ” (Galatians 2:16 NIV) from the beginning of the book of Galatians to the first part of chapter 5 that Paul instructs believers to “live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature” (Galatians 5:16 NIV).
I know that he fulfilled the requirement of the Law, but did Jesus not say, If you Love me keep my Commandments? And when he cast the demons out of Mary Magdelyn, did he not say, Go and sin no More!? The Apostles did even have a new testament to go by, They went by the Old testament and a close relationship with God through Christ Jesus! So yes we do have Grace, but we know now that we can do what we want to do, but once we become a new creation, what we want to do is please God. Our wants change and our desires change. why did God send John the Baptist teach repittance from sin if this was not important. to make straight the way for the Lord! We were taught to stay on the Kings Hi-way and not turn to the right or the left. I would still say that the Law is important, for it is written. in our hearts and the most important of the Laws are first, Love the Lord your God with all your heart strength. soul and mind, and the second is like this, Love your neighbor as yourself. Also there are plenty of things that the testament teaches that could be considered a law, like do not drink blood for it contains the life. , do all things without groaning. and complaining. we call that last one our 11th commandment. We are not bound by these laws, but we still know to follow them. I say all this from my heart and it may offend you, but I just felt that I should speak. Love in Christ Jesus, Annette
Amen and amen
Amen, Micheal! Your right the bible brings us to repentance for our sins. We are so blessed God sent his son into the world so we can be reconciled back into the family. Praise God! I am so thankful to know God. The only way I can describe why he chooses to have me apart of his life is because he is love. I was a sinner. I lived a life of sin. I would turn to God only in times of trouble. However, there’s a big difference from knowing God and knowing of God! I am so thankful for all he does for me. All Ive been shown by the Holy Spirit! I pray all of you are blessed in Jesus name- Barbara
Hypocrisy is a common sin
That grieves the Lord above;
He longs for those who’ll worship Him
In faith and truth and love. —Bosch
James 3:12 (NIV) says, “Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water”. This verse suggests that the sin nature that lives in human beings cannot produce righteous lives.
Romans 13:14 (NIV) tells believers to “clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ”. Thus we need to put on the nature of Jesus Christ. Then we will each be able to live out a holy and righteous life which is the desired result. This clothing with the Lord Jesus Christ is the new clothing that we are instructed to wear. It is not self and focusing on keeping the law that will produce righteous lives. A case in point is found in Romans 7:7-8. In the NIV version of Romans 7:7-8, Paul writes, “For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment produced in me every kind of covetous desire.”
The very idea of wearing the new clothing of the Lord Jesus Christ suggests that it is something apart from self that will produce righteousness. Paul in Romans 7:14 (NIV) says, “We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin”. In other words, the human self is “sold as a slave to sin”. And because of this sinful nature, Romans 7:18 (NIV) tells us that “For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.” Thus, the natural human self cannot carry out what is good, which links to the idea in James 3:12.
One key to living a righteous life would be to live by the Spirit. Romans chapter 8 and Galatians chapter 5 both tell us that we are to live by the Spirit. In Galatians chapter 5, we see that it is the Spirit that produces its nine fruits.
The other key would be to cease from self-righteousness. Even Paul, a former Pharisee, who was “faultless” in his “legalistic righteousness” (Philippians 3:6 NIV) discarded “having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law” (Philippians 3:9 NIV) and instead sought “that which is through faith in Christ – the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith” (Philippians 3:9 NIV). Galatians 2:16 (NIV) plainly says that “a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”
The book of Romans further corroborates the point that righteousness is by faith. Romans 9:31-32 (NIV) says, “but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.” Romans 10:4 (NIV) further says, “Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believers.”
To sum up, the human self by itself cannot produce righteousness as one can see in Paul’s struggle with self in Romans chapter 7. But three keys can help believers. The first is to put on the new clothing of the Lord Jesus Christ. The second is to live by the Spirit. The third is to cease from self-righteousness and instead gain “the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith” (Philippians 3:9 NIV). With these, believers will be able to “run from all these evil things”, “Pursue righteousness and a godly life, along with faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness”, and “Fight the good fight for the true faith”, as Paul instructed Timothy in 1 Timothy 6:11-12 (NLT).
Just because we can identify that there is something called legalistic righteousness which will not save us, DOES NOT MEAN that the righteousness of faith leaves a person bound in their sinful habits and ways.
When a person obeys God through faith, this is not something disgusting to God. No, God was looking for this – its called good fruit.
Now its true that our record is not PERFECT even after we come to Christ. We are not looking to our record of performance to justify us. We do receive pardon and we are reckoned to be guiltless but there are conditions.
Remember the parable Jesus told of the man who came to the wedding but was later cast out because he did not have clothing suitable for the wedding?
Well, God has made it clear that if you live like a pig, and don't change – if you live in adultery, lust, foolishness, greed, pride and so on – YOU DON'T HAVE SAVING FAITH. When you have saving faith you turn from these things and God delivers you from them all step by step. What is important is to stay on the path.
Richard Wurmbrand once asked himself: "Do I believe, or do I only believe that I believe?" Its a good question.
While it is true that Christ forgives those who truly believe in Him, lets be careful lest we start REDEFINING THE MEANINGS OF WORDS. We need to be especially concerned about redefining the meaning of the word "believe" and the meaning of the word "Jesus Christ".
Which Jesus do you believe in? Does this Jesus teach that if you life a life of sin you have nothing to fear? Then its not the same Jesus as the Jesus mentioned in the Bible. Its not the one that actually conquered death and took our sins on the cross. Its just a figment of your imagination, a construct. Believing in a Jesus of your own imagination won't save you.
Neither will the kind of believing that ignores everything Jesus said except for a few verses like John 3:16.
If you want to know what Jesus said about the people who believe, he made the following declarations:
1. Out of their belly will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:37-39)
2. These signs shall follow them: they will cast out demons, heal the sick, experience supernatural protection, and speak in tongues. (Mark 16:15-18)
3. They will do the works Jesus did. (John 14:12)
Real faith is a supernatural thing. It clings to the Lord in absolute trust and confidence. It gets miraculous results. It transforms a person from the inside out. It doesn't cause them to lose all fear of God and become money hungry, groovy swingers who like to hang out at church.
You don't really believe in a person if you don't believe the things they say.
Read the New Testament to find out what Jesus said. Read all of it, from left to right, start to finish, and you'll get a good idea.
If you want to say that Jesus meant that he obeyed for us so that we could forget about obeying God and still go to heaven, I think you are on VERY DANGEROUS GROUND. It just doesn’t harmonise with the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, especially Matthew 7, in which Jesus says that only those who DO the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom, the others will be thrown into hell.
We should tremble at God’s Word, not explain it away.
We can't achieve righteousness by self-effort, and our focus most certainly must be upon Christ. But when a person is chasing the things of the world – the music, the fashion, the money, the vainglory, the envies, the lusts, the selfish indulgences I can tell you one thing for sure – their focus is NOT on Christ. They aren't really married to Christ, they are not living under grace at all, they are actually still under the law, and the law still condemns them, no matter what they confess with their lips or even think about it.
True righteousness does not come from oneself and through one’s self effort in trying to obey the law without fault. Rather, true righteousness comes by faith in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:23-24 (NIV) says, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT CAME BY CHRIST JESUS.”
Paul, who is considered by many to be one of the greatest apostles, explicates the matter in Philippians chapter 3.
As a former Pharisee himself, Paul says in Philippians 3:4 (NIV) that “If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more”. This is because being a former Pharisee, Paul was “faultless” in his “legalistic righteousness”, as he says in Philippians 3:6 (NIV). In the NLT translation, Philippians 3:5 says that Paul was “a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law.”
But Paul in Philippians 3:8 (NIV) “consider[s] everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord”, even pointedly saying he “consider[s] them RUBBISH”.
What a word!!! Paul considers everything other than Christ Jesus Himself “RUBBISH”!!! This word “rubbish” used in Philippians 3:8 (NIV) includes the “legalistic righteousness” mentioned earlier in verse 6, as the “legalistic righteousness” mentioned in verse 6 precedes the word “rubbish” which refers to everything he mentioned earlier.
Paul then says in Philippians 3:9 (NIV) that he now considers himself “NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT COMES FROM THE LAW, BUT THAT WHICH IS THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST – THE RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT COMES FROM GOD AND IS BY FAITH.”
If even Paul, considered by many to be one to the greatest apostles, says that righteousness “comes from God and is by faith” (Philippians 3:9 NIV) and that he does not have a righteousness of his own “that comes from the law” (Philippians 3:9 NIV), who are we to say otherwise?
If we were to say otherwise, wouldn’t we be suggesting that we are greater than the apostle Paul himself? Furthermore, 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) tells us that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God”. Therefore, if we were to deny Paul’s words in Philippians chapter 3 that righteousness “comes from God and is by faith” (Philippians 3:9 NIV), we would be denying the very word of God and consequently denying God.
Let us take in the true gospel of the Good News which is salvation for all who believe, full forgiveness of sins, and a full inheritance in Christ for those who believe. 1 Peter 2-3 (NIV) puts it this way, “Like newborn babies, crave PURE spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that THE LORD IS GOOD.” We are to drink or take in something pure, which in the time period it was written, is the Good News of Christ since the book of 1 Peter was written years after the crucifixion of Christ.
And what is this Good News? Paul puts it this way in Acts 20:24 (NIV), “However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me – the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.” In other words, the Good News is the “gospel of God’s grace”.
And grace, Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 (NIV), is “not from yourselves, it is THE GIFT OF GOD”. And what is a gift? A gift is something someone passes FREELY to you. If you have to pay for it or earn it on your part, it is no longer a gift but a purchase. But thank God, Christ purchased our redemption through his shed blood at Calvary, so that we might receive our redemption freely when we believe in Him.
And Jesus while He was on Earth provided two illustrations about not putting the new together with the old.
Luke 5:36-38 (NIV): He told them this parable: “No one tears a patch from a new garment and sews it on an old one. If he does, he will have torn the new garment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins.”
In the same way, the new teaching of the gospel of God’s grace which is the new covenant that Paul was commissioned to preach as he himself says in Acts 20:24 must be put into the souls of the new creations in Christ who have been born again by the spirit.
In the new testament of the Holy Bible, the English word repentance is actually the Greek word metanoia in the original Greek writing.
From the webpage http://www.metanoiaministries.org/Historical.html, we learn that ‘meta=after; noeo=to think. Put the two together and the effect of meta was “after the fact” or “afterwards.” In essence it meant to think about something later on and have a reversal of opinion about it. Thus, repentance meant “to change the mind.” Specifically—to change the mind about Christ.’
So let us turn away from thinking that we are self-righteous and can fulfill the entire standard of the law by our own self effort, and instead turn to Christ and live by faith in Him. This is true repentance.
Galatians 2:19-21 (KJV) says, “For I through the law AM DEAD TO THE LAW, THAT I MIGHT LIVE UNTO GOD. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COME BY THE LAW, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN.”
Dear Michael,
Matthew 5:17 tells us that Jesus came to fulfil the law and the prophets for us.
Matthew 5:17 (NIV): Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them BUT TO FULFILL THEM.
Matthew 5:18 continues to say that not “the smallest letter … will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”. This is also true. Because our God cut a covenant with the people of Israel in Exodus chapter 24 regarding the commandments, and a covenant is something that has to be ratified with blood, in this case in was the blood of bulls, the commandments cannot be done away with so easily.
But praise be to our loving heavenly father for the sacrifice of His Son that was to come.
Galatians 3:19 (KJV) says, “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made”.
In the NLT translation, Galations 3:19 says, “Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. but THE LAW WAS DESIGNED TO LAST ONLY UNTIL THE COMING OF THE CHILD WHO WAS PROMISED.”
So, what we learn from Galations 3:19 is that the law was given to reveal the sins of the people, and that the law was only meant as a TEMPORARY measure till the promised Son Jesus comes.
But to be specific, the new covenant that is superior to the old covenant of the law does not come into effect till the death of our beloved Christ.
Hebrews 9:16 tells us that a person has to die for a will to be in force.
Hebrews 9:16 (NIV): In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
The new covenant that Jesus came to die to give is very different from the old covenant of the law. Romans 3:20 shows us the inferior nature of the old covenant of the law. Romans 3:20 (NIV) says, “THEREFORE NO ONE WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS IN HIS SIGHT BY OBSERVING THE LAW; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.” However, the full requirements of the law was met at the sacrifice of Jesus’ life.
Romans 8:3-4 (NLT): The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. HE DID THIS SO THAT THE JUST REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW WOULD BE FULLY SATISFIED FOR US.
Therefore, Jesus death on the cross fulfilled the demands of the law for us, although no letter of the law given during Moses’ time could be changed. Hallelujah! All praise and glory to the redemptive work of Christ who redeemed us and brought us out of the old covenant into the new covenant!!!
First of all, let me say that I enjoy listening to Joseph Prince myself. I’ve learned a lot from his preaching. That said, I would like to question you about one of your comments. In speaking of the Christian, you made this statement: “we still live with the old nature.” The “old nature” is what separated us from God. Do you think He would leave the old nature in us? If so, why?
Amen to the prayer you made for us.
Yes, I agree that father in this parable hugged and kissed and accepted his son even before his son opened his mouth to appologise for what he did, at least that is what the parable tells us- but the fact that this son came to his father already means in this case that he left his sinful life and prostitutes and drinking and etc. Here is an example of what repentance is- making a change of direction in life ( which is the root meaning of the word repentance). In Hebrew to repent – Tchuva -means- to return to God or to turn away from sin. You said “He sinned, wasn’t even remorseful, he just felt sorry for himself and went back home” which is not accurate – please read Luke 15:18-19″ I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants”. That was true repentance of heart which was followed by change in action. Yes, father saw him and run towards him because he knew his lost son is coming back,returning or repenting(same word in Hebrew)So to say that this parable justifies the view that we dont need repentance for God to accept us is wrong. In fact it is also His work in our hearts through Holy Spirit to bring us to that place of repentance( to cause that change of direction) and to bring us to Himself !!! Very respectfully! God bless you,Marina.
Decided to add another comment to this discussion. It is not easy to point on someone’s mistakes or errors because we live now in such a tolerance oriented society but I really respect it when people take a firm stand especially when at stake is the Truth of the Bible! I really felt like I need to support the point of view which Michael expresses in this article about Joseph Prince’ ministry. We can say lots of things for and against what JP teaches. But also”By their fruit you will know them”,right? So I want to give an example of what JP followers post on their facebook to show what fruit it brings- just couple months ago one young pastor posted a short message on his facebook wall stating that all we need now is Believe and Receive and we do not need Repent and Confess,also he stated that repentance business is something of old but now all is new and now repentance /confession is not necessary because of the message of Grace that God has for us. I asked that pastor-what about James 5:16 “Confess sins to each other..”, what about 1John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins”. You know what answer I got- May be the translation of this verses was not as accurate… So that means if some verses do not line up with this so called”grace” theology then they are not translated correctly?! So not that view is questioned but the Bible,right?! Wow! If someone does not understand what is happening here then I dont really know what else to say! (Well,in my case I read Bible in Russian,Hebrew and English and those verses still mean the same to me- repent is repent in all 3 languages!) The problem is not only with JP ministry,unfortunately there are too many like him now. But the problem is -Why preachers like him have such successful ministries- I think it’s because christians are not studying Word of God themselves but allow others to “guide” them without checking if what they are being taught is God’s truth! Someone once said that false teachings can not withstand the scrutiny under the divine light of Scripture. That’s what is our responsibility! To check! “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God” 1 John 4:1 We must not automatically and gullibly believe every thing that we hear, the word “prove” (dokimazo-Greek) means “to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing be genuine or not). Read also Rom 16:17-18. Yes, this is really scary time -just look at what is happening around us. Eastern spirituality and mysticism entering churches and new age views are so popular among christians now, churches operate and look like money making businesses. If someone will google-christian yoga,you will see how popular yoga is now among christians too. I can continue the list.. Why?? I believe one of the main answers to that is exactly that – the authority of scriptures is removed or questioned by many in churches .. May God have mercy on us and may we abide in His Truth and may nothing separate us from Him! That is my prayer for all who would read this!!! I respect all those who think differently from my opinion but so wish they take more time to test and prove for themselves! It actually took me a while to see some things too!!! Thankful to find this website and participate in this forum! God bless you all!!!
Wow, I feel welcomed here already,that’s my first time here and I am glad to be part of dicussion/forum. Wish I would have more time to read/participate. Very well noticed-rightessness is not a competition.. and well, wish there would be many more true sheperds who really love God and willing to feed His sheep!!! God bless you too! Marina.
Dear Jim, Thank you for your response. I am so glad this forum allows such a discussion. It is good to express our opinions and share concerns. Jim, I totally agree that Why God does something is very important as it shows us His character,His heart and agree that it’s probably more important than What He does! I thought more about it today and what came to my mind was that sometimes God did or allowed to happen things that would be quite difficult for some to understand(flood,fire,etc) , but again- if we know why He did it or allowed-then it changes all. It’s just in case of Grace we need also to remember that because of what He did we escaped punishment &death and we’re to be grateful to Him for His salvation.And again,I agree-Why is superior to What -it makes us even more grateful ! Yes,about the Hebrew names -I love sharing with people about the meaning of John the Baptist’ name because as we know God Himself gave him that name, so I just like explaining why God have chosen that specific name for him and name John does not really explain much. But his Hebrew name Johanan- God is Pardoner/ Gracious is a message to us from God. We read in Luke 2:76-77 “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; For you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways; To give to His people the Knowledge of Salvation By the forgiveness of their sins..”(so God is a Pardoner,Gracious,right?!!) And I agree not every Hebrew name is possible to give in English translations,you are right it would not be easy to read that.. but again this one name and of course the name of Jesus-Yeshua-Salvation I would certainly add there if it was me:-) Blessings,Marina.
With God, he always gives 100%. But we try & strive. To. Do aS he does & always fall short of perfection. As I recall Jesus didn’t come to do away with the law but to fullfill the Law. Though we strive each day , we don’t fully reach perfection, BUt. Grace is unmerited favor, & pardon,Forgiveness that is un earned. But to concider law 90% & Grace 10% you really cheapen what Jesus did on the Cross. You cheapen the meaning of grace. For the law. Is fullfilled By him alone and if it was still only. A covenant of law then all men of God would need circumcized. We follow the Law because he said if you love me , keep my commandments. For once he lives in you you can do what you wAnt but the new creation we become, Changes our want to’s. & he said love the lord God with all. Your Heart, Strength, Soul & Mind. & to love your Neighbor as yourself. These 2 have all the commandments wrapped up in them. Yet here we still fall down & grace comes in. To me the Grace is of utmost importance in our covenant with the Lord, for the law was fullfilled. By Jesus. So to weigh one against the other is folly & we must allow Gods spirit to minister to us in this matter so I ask, Holy Spirit of God, we ask for wisdom in this matter and trust that your full truth be revealed. In Christ Jesus’ Name, let our eyes see & our ears hear,for the truth is in you. I thAnk you for providing the. Answer needed for Father you alone are Wise. In Christ Jesus I pray Amen. Love your sis in Christ,annette
Well now that you’re on the record for that ratio, I guess that’s gonna be the ratio God employs while judging you. Maybe you want to reconsider?
Hi Marina
Any Action God displays by His Grace towards us, is directly connected to the Why He has chosen to display it
You cannot have the Action of Grace, without the Why.
As I said in my original post
“It therefore appears as though Grace in itself does not change, in other words, (Grace is Grace is Grace), but the application of that Grace may very well be different, with regard to the circumstances of need.”
You cannot define Grace, as what God does (Action), when in whatever form the Action of God might appear, it is always motivated by His Love.
The Action always follows the motivation of Love.
Grace is the expression of Gods’ Love towards Mankind.
Gods’ Grace, does not ever appear spontaneously.
Yes you are right, The Grace of God is both, what He does, and why He does it, but what I was defining was.
Which came first (the chicken or the egg) (the Motivation or the Action) (the essence of the word Grace)?
Your post has enhanced this thread, giving more information for new readers to ponder.
I agree with you I personally love to find the definition for the names of people that God used, or were spoken of in the Bible, but I love the words themselves, I believe each and every word used in the KJV of the Bible cannot be improved upon for either clarity, or for ease of reading.
Be Blessed
JIM
Righteousness is a Goal/Mark, NOT A COMPETITION. A Disciple (student) is NEVER ABOVE THEIR LORD. Didst Jesus not ask Simon Peter “do you Love Me?” and qualify the question with “feed my Sheep/Lambs”? If we judge ourselves as worthy and others as unworthy, does it not follow by “The Word of God” that those we judge unworthy shall be our judges? Or do we dare to make “The Word of God” a lie in order to justify our indignation towards others? Let us not therefore become that which we despise by our own oversight (blindness/self-righteousness). Let they that so do stand on their soapboxes and may God help us to Bestow His TRUTH and RIGHTEOUSNESS with an even hand.
God Bless all who come in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christopher John Petersen.
Occassionally I see youtube posts with Joseph Prince’ Grace sermans that my friends put on facebook and when I tried to warn them to be careful about what he teaches I got a response -that we are not to judge.. I pray their eyes will be opened one day!!! Now in response to Re:Grace Research comment that was posted earlier..I always appreciate when people go to Hebrew language to better understand such important words in Bible as Grace,Faith,etc. And I see that word Grace translation in comment Re: Grace Research was taken from Strongs concordance. Some time ago I studied word Grace too and because I lived in Israel for almost a decade it helped me to do it as I could also use Hebrew dictionaries. Grace – Hanan in Hebrew includes meanings -gift, kindness, mercy,pity,compassion but it also means-pardon or amnesty. If someone needs a pardon then he probably is at fault of committing a crime,otherwise there is nothing to pardon him for,right? Also if that someone needs pardon then he probably deserves punishment. Otherwise why does he need that pardon or amnesty.So yes, grace(hanan) is God’s great favor towards us but it’s also His declaration of amnesty(pardon) for our sins. So we ,believers,instead of deserved punishment through that Grace receive God’s favor,gift of everlasting life. John the Baptist’ name in Hebrew Johanan Ha-matbil. Name Johanan consists of 2 words -Jo and Hanan- Yehova and Grace or Pardon. So this name means God is Gracious or God is a Pardoner. We know well that Johanan’ ministry was to bring Israel to repentance of their sins (Repentance in Hebrew Tchuva-means Return to God or turning away from sin) and we also know that Johanan’ ministry (call for repentance) was preparing the way for the Lord Jesus-Yeshua ,in Hebrew His name means Salvation.( I personally so wish English Bibles would start using Hebrew names more, because they all have important meanings & explain a lot). Yes,we all know that God’s Grace is known to us through His forgiveness (pardon) but whom God does forgive? -He forgives the one with a repentant heart. If this is wrong then the whole ministry of John the Baptist was in vain .. but he baptized Israel not unto anything else but ..unto Repentance. His ministry showed people of Israel that God is Gracious (or God is a Pardoner -Jehova Hanan). Of course we also know that many in Israel did not recognize and did not accept Jesus-Yeshua, but wasn’t self righteousness the main reason for that. Well,there is a lot to say about it all but I absolutely do not agree that Grace it is not what God does,but only why He does it ..No, Grace is pretty much both -What He does -He pardons us and Why -because He loves us and favors us, both What He does and Why are important!!! So through even a simple study of the words used , I believe we can not talk about God’s Grace without the Repentance from our side, to me it is like to talk about Faith(Emuna in Hebrew) without Truth(Emet). Interesting that words Faith and Truth both have the same root in Hebrew -Aman, meaning “firmness, certainty, reliability”,so biblical faith- like truth- is sure and certain. (Just giving it as another example that biblical (Hebrew language) can help us understand more about the Word of God. So when I hear “Grace” preachers preaching their messages I just know how shallow those messages are. Yes, we are saved by Grace ..but dont forget that we are saved by Grace through Faith and …that Faith comes from hearing God’s Word and God’s word means whole Bible not just few verses which were taken out of contest and used as a basis for some “new”, “revolutionary” theology!!! There is such an attack on His word going on now- authority of Holy Scriptures is questioned by even once very firm believers. Lets not be deceived- that’s a very Old tactic of enemy who once asked Eve- did God really said..?? And he asks the same question again and again… Glad to be a part of that discussion. Respectfully!!!
The way sin is condoned is by teaching other things that are FALSE, which leads to people not being too concerned about sin, nor expecting to live holy and in victory over it. This kind of teaching is very familiar to me, and after watching friends and churches under this kind of teaching, I can say FOR A FACT that the fruit is always the same–sin-promoting, sin-excusing, sin-loving rebels who refuse to receive correction and admonition. Everyone I have ever known who embraced these ideas could NEVER receive correction or be warned in the Fear of God. As a matter of fact. the FEAR OF THE LORD is a foreingn concept and doctrine to them. Any teaching that destroys the fear of the Lord…well, we know from whence it comes. Prince is a believer and no doubt God is using him, but AT THE SAME TIME, he is being used by the Devil as well.
Overall michael at worst your post is a bit slanderous and definitely ‘cheeky’ (in your vernacular). Red flags go up when I see some of the statements you make about JP. To say he is a Teacher of Lawless Grace is completely distorting what JP teaches and actually slanderous.
” and I thought I could live for myself while still receiving these benefits.”
You keep emphasizing that the object of JP teachings on grace is that he is tickling ears of those who want to live anyway they want. Nothing could be further from the truth and the only way one would come to that conclusion is by not honestly and throughly listening to what he says and writes.
The grace that JP teaches has as its object, for the Christian, to abandon his own flailings and efforts and throw himself on the grace of God – not so he can live anyway he wants, guilt-free – but to empower him to live in complete fellowship with God and experience the wonderful holiness of God. One cannot experience the holiness of God in his own power. The Law established this. Jesus came to live the Holy life we couldn’t and once perfected, the second man Adam’s life is then imparted to one who believes. He receives a new creation that CANNOT sin just as in the first man Adam he received a nature that COULD NOT do a single thing righteous and actually is resistant to God, hates God.
But we still live with the old nature and the only way we can live holy unto God is to walk in the Spirit, so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We PUT ON the new man. But one cannot walk confidently in this grace if one is always alienated to God through condemnation (hence Romans 7/8). GRACE EMPOWERS the believer and ENCOURAGES the believer that, we no longer have to hide from God as Adam did in the garden. We are encouraged to come BOLDLY into the throne of grace for a reason. God says, “Quit looking at yourself and look at ME, I am your VICTORY.”
GRACE is indeed RADICAL and beyond our normal understanding, of course it is, it is from God. So when someone is bold enough to reveal what Grace really is about, you hear gasps and people misunderstanding the message as it is so, RADICAL. Grace enables what the Law could not, that is, HOLINESS and the only way to that HOLINESS is Jesus. We have to give up on ourselves, receive God’s complete assurance of forgiveness, that we are not to concern ourselves with trying to fulfill the Law (we simply can’t) and instead find our life hidden with Christ who will write the Law on our heart. It is automatically fulfilled in the Love that is spread in our hearts through the Spirit.
But if we are constantly beign mental on whether we are saved or not or ‘performing’ or else our fellowship with Him is broken, how can we honestly keep our eyes on Jesus. God saw the problem and solved it with GRACE. The foundation of our building has to be the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross, without this we cannot build. Christ’s imputed righteousness gives us the legal right to approach the throne of GRACE boldy, to work out his holiness experientially by the Spirit.
The only thing I might take issue with JP is when he says that Jesus only meant change our minds about the way we are saved when he said Repent. Jesus of course was speaking of ‘changing’, repent of our previous behaviour by changing our minds about it, turn from it, don’t just say you are sorry and keep doing it. At that time the grace covenant wasn’t enacted yet as he hadn’t died on the cross so this couldn’t have been what Jesus was speaking of. NOW, without his GRACE we can’t actually do that, even that (repentance) is only done in the Grace and Spirit of God. So his hearers could actually repent, in the effort of their own flesh, and be frustrated when they found themselves continually failing, something he provided a solution for in the New Covenant. Neverthelss it is still true, that they needed to repent. Again, even the ability to REPENT is provided by the Spirit and the Grace of God.
you do era not knowing the truth of repentance,all sin from day 1 of salvation,God throws our past in the sea of forgetfulness, know if 1 cannot get through the day without committing sin,then he has not found true salvation,we are brand new in Christ, Salvation is the beginning of new life,no one is able to pluck us out of God;s hand!! we must choose to jump out,in order to fail ,other wise we don;t have to take whatever we get,, I’m the child of a King,a royal heir, My father will take care of his own! God owns the cattle on a thousand hills,also the hills, Charaty starts at home first,then if we can go past that,praise God! Many rather give to strangers rather than their own family,they want to impress,but they have all the reward they are going to get.
The slanderous remarks here are proof to me that Knowledge puffeth up & love edifies. Anyone can twist the word ro make someone else look bad – not impressed by this
I think He said Kenneth Hagin
Do you know that the revivalists of the past who transformed nations, like John Wesley, and Charles Finney, believed that one should preach 90% law, and 10% grace?”
Hey, ya know that would be great if it were the 18th or 19th century for both Wesley and Finney respectively. But it’s not. Grace is for today. Salvation is for today. Not yesterday’s church fathers, however much you care to elevate and revere them in this day, you’re missing out on a world of lost kids whom will not relate, lest they be well trained Shakespearean actors or recent grads with a BA or better in world literature.
But good for you in knowing, and printing for all to see, the simple gospel. Get people to believe in what God has done, and the sanctification, growth, and the benefits therein, yes, even wealth (oh perish the thought, and what’s worse — it may be opulent wealth), can and does happen. I was broke and living on the streets when God revealed the love of Jesus to me. If I boast, I will boast of His great love for me and all that He has provided. Allow others the same experience. Rather than shoot slings at a successful pastor half way round the world, why not encourage believers to walk with and enjoy the Lord? That way, whether they in need or with plenty (and it’ll eventually be the latter) they’ll have obtained true Riches from He gives, and lives to give. God enjoys giving, He thrives from doing so. More than a concept, or angle, it’s the truth.
Are you a Jew? Jesus came and preached to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Apparently you believe you are one of those. Are you loving the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul (24/7)? That’s a law. It’s part of the deal… the covenant which God had with Israel at the time of Christ’s walk on earth. He was inspecting the fields to see if there were any righteous. Do you still believe He is doing that now? If you do, have you sold out? Apparently not, as you reply and post garbage (slander and maligning gossip) online. Repent sinner. Wail and cry and perhaps God will forgive you. Better still, why not be obedient and follow your Apostle, assuming you’re a Gentile. Or do you get off on mixing grace and law at a ratio of 10 to 90 percent. Sure hope God will not judge you by that ratio. Gee, I’ll allocate 10 percent leeway (grace) to you but hold you accountable to my LAW for the other 90 percent.
Paul said we once beheld Jesus in the flesh but do so no longer… Whaddya think he meant by that?
Have a look at my youtube channel, http://www.youtube.com/christianfaithvideos and the main video that pops up on the simple gospel – where I speak on 1 Cor 15:1-4.
There is plenty on this site about how to be saved.
Do you know that the revivalists of the past who transformed nations, like John Wesley, and Charles Finney, believed that one should preach 90% law, and 10% grace? Google it. I've even included a couple of John Wesley's published sermons on this site, on subjects like Salvation by faith, and so on.
I am very familiar with the angle you are taking. I have heard it plenty of times, and I grew up in churches that taught something like this. I got a real shock when I read the whole gospel of Matthew from start to finish one evening about 20 years ago. If you do it some time you might get the idea that God's gospel is a little different than what so-called "Free Grace Theology" makes it out to be. It is called "The GOSPEL according to Matthew", after all.
Good word, sister Barbie. I’ve noticed a funny thing on YouTube. Those who preach law and dismiss the likes of Joseph Prince as radical grace teachers, and worse, as false prophets, seldom themselve ever provide any clue, word, instruction on how to be right with God. They never display the simple gospel by which men are saved. Most, if asked, can not tell you what it is. 1 Cor 15:1-4 “1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,”
Like it or not, that’s the gospel. You doubt this? Well then consider Rom 2:16 “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” Whose gospel? Paul’s gospel. By grace, through faith, by BELIEVING.
As for the secrets, well we all have them and God is going to reveal them. Not all righteous, commandment obeying, followers of Christ will be entering Heaven. Cause some of them never believed in Jesus and what He alone accomplished on the Cross. Conversely, many who claim total reliance on Christ secretly believe they had a little, maybe more, to do with their salvation.
Either way, don’t be fooled. Examine to see if you are in faith. Don’t examine yourself. You’ll only lie. Just check to make sure your trust is all in on Him and Him alone.
GulfShark: You’re young (6 months?) in the Lord. Let me tell you what someone told me over 30 years ago. We were in prayer, in a circle, and I was feeling condemned. Can’t remember off hand what it was. Maybe my hand? I was 26 and single LOL So back to the story… this motorcylcle dude, a former Hell’s Angel, grabs me by the arm. He was mildly annoyed that I wouldn’t openly pray for something or other cause I felt self-conscience. That’s what condemnation will do to you, make you feel self-conscience more than Christ conscience. So he says, “Dude (that’d be me), IT”S NOT YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS! It was like a light going off. A major blockage was released. I prayed… loudly and strongly… cause I knew God heard me not based on my behavior but on His Son’s life and faith, PERFECT in EVERY way.
Do likewise.
Grace and peace to you in abundance each day forth, brother.
You see in the above comment where Joseph Prince doctrine leads people.
There are to be no standards in the church in regards to morality because "God doesn't grade on a curve". In fact, righteous behavior has no bearing on the issue of whether a person is a child of God.
I suppose practicing Satanists also (who are in many churches) can also be justified by grace through faith alone, and carry on with their satanism. People like George W. Bush Sr, perhaps. After all, what is so hard about the word "ALL"? As long as they believe they are forgiven, they are, and they can carry right on, because only a nasty religious hypocritical bigot who deserves to be hated would deny it. I mean, satanists have their form of idolatry, and the greedy person has his. So what's the difference? Give me a break. Throw out your MP3 collection of messages and listen to the Word of God.
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:9,10
And such WERE some of you (not ARE some of you) vs 11.
Many of us were sinning in ways like this but when we turn to God in faith we stop living like this.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Rev 21:8
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
If you consider me a fool, as a fool bear with me.
TL you say.. “I have people doing bad things in my church”
Your church? I thought the called out body in this world was His. His Church to sanctify and grow as He wills. Why not let God handle it and save your email. After all, He’s given you a ministry. That of reconcilation… you know, spreading the Good News.
We serve a happy God. Smiles all around, everybody… specially you religious children.
If you’ll forgive me for saying so, that’s the most idiotic comment I’ve read in a lonnggg time. You have a solution to this problem, right? Make sure every parishioner is holy and blameless in His sight before they are allowed a seat at church. And if they must enter, make sure you seat them in the rear, out of sight. Of course God will see them. BUT WAIT! He’s made them Holy and Right by their faith in Jesus. That’s in the Bible, too.
Or when God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing sins against man… did He leave the sins of homos and lesbians but forgive yours completely? How convenient. It must be comforting to believe God grades on a curve. Religious folks like you are the primary reason Christians are hated by the world. You’re being persecuted for maligning God and His total reconciliation by grace, through faith alone, to all who BELIEVE. What’s so hard about the word ALL?
Are you sure you are addressing the right person? I don’t want someone else to take the blame for something I have said.
I only saw this post today. I did not feel like it was right to criticize Joseph Prince’s appearance. Now this person has the right to say what he or she wants to, but so do I. If this had been said about you then I would have defended you.
But don’t worry I have said about all I am going to say on this site about Joseph Prince and salvation, unless someone specifically request that I continue. That said have a nice night.
Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
It is not good to say anything towards any man. For who are we to judge? Who are we to write before Jesus saying whether something is bad or good. Has anyone laid this at the feet of our Lord Jesus Christ. Has anyone asked him for his thoughts about this site. Do you hear the voice of the Lord? Have you asked him to let his will be done about this site? Has anyone done anything with out first seeking Jesus. To speak and express ourselves is a gift from God. We are to use that gift to uplift those anywhere and everywhere. To bring Glory to the father threw Jesus the son of God. Seek now the love of the lord towards thy fellow man. Seek now for yourselves that divine love that Jesus commanded us to have for one another ( read John 15; Read Cor. 13). It is written in Romans………..
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. KJV
Rom 2:1 So do you think that you can judge those other people? You are wrong. You too are guilty of sin. You judge them, but you do the same things they do. So when you judge them, you are really condemning yourself. ERV
By Judging one thing it leads to the judgement of another. Did it not. One judgement of a person lead to the judgement of another. Which lead a judgement of another. Are you not all guilty of judging. Am I not guilty now of judging? Are we guilty of sin? Is judgement from mankind a sin?
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: KJV
Rom 2:2 God judges all who do such things, and we know his judgment is right.
Rom 2:3 And since you do the same things as those people you judge, surely you understand that God will punish you too. How could you think you would be able to escape his judgment?
Rom 2:4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
Rom 2:5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people.
Rom 2:6 He will reward or punish everyone for what they have done.
In Romans 2:1 we clearly see the truth do we not? The question before us is do you think you can judge those other people? Read on my friends I say look back, even better go get your bibles and look up the scripture for yourselves, what do you see what do you hear? Can you hear the voice of God telling you the truth that is written? The answer is within the scriptures. It is written Rom 2:1 So do you think that you can judge those other people? You are wrong. You too are guilty of sin. You judge them, but you do the same things they do. So when you judge them, you are really condemning yourself. Erv.
Are we not all guilty of sin? Are we not guilty for the judging of others? What does it say? It says that we are!
What shall we do then? Shall we repent of our sin of judging others? I should say we all should. I pray this be a lesson to us all how the system of things works. Satan comes. One sin leads to another. One passing of judgement of another leads to another and another. It is all a plot here, to separate us all from God. To separate us from him so we cannot be apart of the final ultimate perfection is it not. So by all means what do we do. Look to the word is what I believe. Even for myself, for all who say I am not guilty of sin is a lier. We all have sinned, we all have judged.
Look to Romans friends chapter 2 it teaches us a lot here. Shall we go further into the word? I will answer for us and say YES!
Rom 2:12 People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says.
Rom 2:14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law.
Rom 2:15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.
Rom 2:16 All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone.
Rom 2:17 What about you? You say you are a Jew. You trust in the law and proudly claim to be close to God.
Rom 2:18 You know what God wants you to do. And you know what is important, because you have learned the law.
Rom 2:19 You think you are a guide for people who don’t know the right way, a light for those who are in the dark.
Rom 2:20 You think you can show foolish people what is right. And you think you are a teacher for those who are just beginning to learn. You have the law, and so you think you know everything and have all truth.
Rom 2:21 You teach others, so why don’t you teach yourself? You tell them not to steal, but you yourself steal.
Rom 2:22 You say they must not commit adultery, but you yourself are guilty of that sin. You hate idols, but you steal them from their temples.
Rom 2:23 You are so proud that you have God’s law, but you bring shame to God by breaking his law. Erv
There’s so much here folks I want you all to read this. To think about what it means to you. I can teach you. I show you the way. However, shouldn’t you be seeking your own relationship with God? Threw Jesus and teaching yourselves? Teaching one another? Uplifting each other for the Glory of our God? I think that’s what this site is for. To bring us into a closer relationship with our God in Heaven through Jesus Christ, with the divine help of our friend the Holy Spirit. Repent of this sin, read our bibles, seek the the truth, and love each other, as we have been loved by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Be Blessed all of you as well me.
Hi Globaltruthseeker
It is difficult to fathom, why you would wait for 1yr and 8 weeks to make your first post, then when you finally decide to.
You have managed to discredit your chosen site name with one post.
That was an unkind remark. That’s carrying the criticism too far.
I notice that when a person starts criticizing another person that there are plenty of people who are willing to jump on the bandwagon with them.
I checked out the donate site you went to. It is as you say. It has donation options ranging from $1.00 to $50,000. That did not surprise me. There are people who can afford to give $50,000 and not bat an eye, but I am not one of them. You have to understand that he runs a TV ministry, and it can’t be run on peanuts. As I see it, you can pick whatever size donation that you want to. No one is asking you to send $50.000.
Also, I will say this about Joseph Prince. He DOES NOT encourage people to send their tithe money to his church. He says you should give it to the local church that you attend. That says something about his character.
Well said. Good insight.
HI Sunrise
I have found through a study of the word GRACE,
Grace is used 120 times in the New Testament, always with the same definition.
G5485
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the (DEVINE INFLUENCE UPON THE HEART) , and (IT’S REFLECTION IN THE LIFE); including gratitude): – acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
I have found that Grace in the Old Testament, is used 37 times with the same definition.
H2580
From H2603; graciousness, that is, subjectively (kindness, favor) or objectively (beauty): – favour, grace (-ious), pleasant, precious, [well-] favoured.
H2603
properly ( TO BEND OR STOOP IN KINDNESS TO AN INFERIOR); to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (that is, move to favor by petition): – beseech, X fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, X very.
It therefore appears as though Grace in itself does not change, in other words, (Grace is Grace is Grace), but the application of that Grace may very well be different, with regard to the circumstances of need.
Grace is always expressed from God to man, always from the greater towards the lesser, we (Christians) are then required to express that same Grace to others through Love, Charity, and Works.
To forgive a wrong, is an act of Grace.
Grace is always
benefit, favour, gift, graciousness, kindness, mercy, pity.
In regard to the word (“Manifold) grace of God”.
G4164
motley, that is, various in character: – divers, manifold.
So Grace connot be defined as What God Does, but “WHY” He does it.
Be Blessed
JIM
I have never heard Joseph Prince condone sin. I have heard him say, “We are all for holiness.” As for as his church goes, there are anywhere from 19,000 to 22,000 members. He has no control over what his members do. No pastor does. The last I heard each person was responsible for his or her own actions. People are going to do what they are going to do. They don’t need an excuse.
As for as his doctrine goes, he preaches that Jesus has paid for all of our sins. With the sin debt out of the way, a person has freedom in Christ. He never says a person is free to do as
he or she pleases. You are assuming that he suggest that. You are the one suggesting it.
don’t forget the devil coming disguised as an angel of light….
Christians are to spread the gospel to all the world and not keep it secret like a masonic code! If one pretends to be an angel of light but doesn’t communicate ALL truth to brothers using any means possible, then you can know its the devil prtending to be a representative of goodness and salvation. Demons will always lie, except to give small bits of truth to confuse. True kristians don’t wear masks to hide, evade and twist truth. Anyone who tells you they do is a LIAR!
While we are busy wearing out our computers criticizing or defending Joseph Prince and his ministry and challenging one another on our beliefs, the devil is busy destroying people’s lives. If he can just get the people of God distracted, he has accomplished his goal.
You’re right when you say, “Grace” is a much BIGGER word than many realise.” That might be a good topic for the folks out there to research.
Now I have recently read all of Hebrews chapter 9. I have selected a few verses from that passage.
Hebrews 9:11, 12, 15
11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance .
What I get from this is that a Christian’s salvation is eternal and whatever a Christian inherits along with that is eternal. Now the problem lies in how to justify these verses with some of the other verses in the Bible. There has to be a solution, because God is not a God of confusion. He would not tell you one thing and me another. However, it does sound like something that satan would do to render the church ineffective for Christ.
Can you give up all your wealth to follow God? If you can’t, is your wealth an idol to you? He was to donate ALL. Can you? You make it sound easy when even the disciples asked how: “Who then can be SAVED:!!!!, if the law or the commandment requires you to sacrifice ALL YOU HAVE. And you wonder, why would these disciples, who HAD left everything they have and FOLLOWED God, ask him that question. It’s because, YOU can’t do it on your own. It’s impossible. You NEED Jesus. Hence the statement ” “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”” It’s not YOUR work because even if you TRY to meet what you can, where you FALL short at… means you fall short at all…does it not? You THINK you know, but you really don’t.
You say Zaccheus illustrates repentance, but did you know Grace leads to repentance. That’s what Pastor Prince would have told you too. Look at Zaccheus, what came first… did he ask for repentance for God showed HIS GRACE or was it GRACE!!!! that caused him to repent. Now just repent… he even GAVE!
Another example, the an adulteress woman was brought to Jesus during a sermon.
John 8
“Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
? Jesus says to an adulterer “Neither do I condemn you”. He showed his grace and then he says ‘leave your life of sin’. OVER AND OVER, all God does is show is grace while EVERYONE around him is judging people for their failure to keep the law and repent….
Love Trumps Money Everyday, but both are nice. Just remember, you can’t take either with you to Heaven or hell, so you’d best not squander either. Our time on this planet is but a blink of an eye and…..Live Life with NO Regrets.
Zaccheus illustrates repentance. His response to Jesus’ love led him to forsake his wealth and do restitution for his past sins. This is something quite rare in the church today.
The rich young man said he had kept the commandments, but actually, Jesus showed him that he had not. His wealth was an idol to him, something of higher priority than God and God's will. That was a violation of the first commandment.
So the law reveals the lack of love in the life of that man.
Now if Jesus followed Joseph Prince, he would have told the rich young ruler something like this: "No big deal, you are doing more than enough. Be secure in your salvation! Just believe in me, no change is required, and you will have the privilege of tithing to my ministry! That way, you can get even richer while you bless the Kingdom and find personal significance!"
Now listen: if LOVE is the commandment, then that either God requires it of saved people or He doesn't. If he doesn't, why mention it? If He does, then there will be a need for repentance – change. Because love requires an abandoning of self and selfishness.
I believe that what God requires of us is a deep trust in Him who is One with His Word – and this will mean loads of change for all of us.
God gives time to repent, as I have said in other places. But to say repentance is not necessary is just plain unfaithful to Scripture. This is the point at issue as far as I am concerned.
Michael, Grace is God’s love for us. Out of love, flows things like gifts. Just as you would give a gift to your CHILD out of love. But it all has to do with love. You are looking at the ant with a magnifying glasses and saying it’s the size of a rat. No it’s not a bigger definition, just a BIGGER love for you and me.
You don’t want me answer right? Let’s see what Jesus said
Mark 12:28
“29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
Now why would Jesus said there is no commandment greater than these? And why would John say
1John 3
23 And this is HIS COMMAND: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Now why are these focused? Let’s check on someone who does follow the commandments like the rich young man who had FOLLOWED all the commandments. Someone who thought that Grace wasn’t sufficient. Read carefully, when God said the commandments, the rich man said “all these I have kept, what do I still lack?” and Jesus told him to sell everything and follow him. As the young man walked away his disciples asked
Matthew 19: 25-26
“25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.””
With God… You need his grace. I do good because of his love. If I am judged based on my works, I will continue to lack something and fail.
Now compare that Rich young man to Zacchaeu. Zacchaeu is a tax collector a sinner. Compare the self-rightous young man and the response by Jesus to him and to Zacchaeu who “just wanted to see Jesus”.
Luke 19: 5-8
” 5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
When you compare yourself to your ability to follow the commandments, you fall short. Just as the rich young man. But when God shows his grace… you can’t HELP but LOVE and GIVE too… WITHOUT even been asked. Because whoever is loved by God can’t help it but give.. care..
When you realize this… you will feel LOVED by God more than ever. I have.
indicate that there are a lot of dodgy looking things and people going on there. BUT, I have heard from someone who actually went to that church and has since migrated to Australia, that you can't be in leadership if you are in an adulterous relationship. That's nice to know.
A lot of megachurches operate as "crowds" of religious "consumers" where standards only apply to "inner-circle" members – i.e. "leaders".
sorry for my first post, I wrote it within 15 minutes during my break so I couldn’t sum it up as well as I would have liked.
The point about the lawlessness was a response to everyone who kept pointing out the faults of Joseph Prince’s guests. To find these people who aren’t righteous inside a church, isn’t NEW. Find me a church that has perfect guests and they can be the first to throw the stone at Joseph Prince’s teaching. It’s ridiculous to reflect a pastor’s teaching with some of the members of the church, is it not?
I guess I’m not trying to defend Joseph Prince but the comments seemed unfair. And I’m not saying it was you. 🙂
I have heard a couple of Joseph Prince teachings but from what I understand, I do not believe it’s as you said. Let’s look at the prodigal son. The son left the father… took everything and did what he wanted. He sinned, wasn’t even remorseful, he just felt sorry for himself and went back home. And what did the father do? He did not judge his son. He RAN towards him, hugged him, kissed him, put the best clothes and a festival… all before the son has even apologized for his sins. Isn’t God our father, just like that? Some Christians are like the older brother, who feels unappreciated because of the radical Grace and wants to be judged by his work. And he complained about how he has worked and did his best for the father yet this lawless son is appreciated and loved. And the father said, ‘everything i have is yours.’
I’m sure the older brother would even think that the YOUNGER brother is taking ‘advantage’ of the love of the father. But you have to realize, it’s God’s love for them, not your love. It’s God’s grace, that saves them, not yours. If we forgave people based on our grace, no one will ever be saved. Just because some people feel more JUST or LAWFUL with their walk with God, they shouldn’t feel jealous towards the gracious LOVE by the father. Go into the party and enjoy. Did Jesus not dine with the sinners. The faults you find in the grace teaching, you will also find in the people who believe just like YOU. But what’s consistent is, they will again and again need God’s grace. Have you ever loved someone Michael? How much will you forgive your children, even though they keep sinning or do something bad? Should they fear condemnation and fear of reproach from their father? If you, an earthly father would continue to love them, imagine the heavenly father. Joseph Prince teachings has made me realized his LOVE for ME. I am not going to sin, not because I fear anything but because, I do not want to hurt the one that loves me.
*
In my mind, when I read what each has written, I see truth from both sides.
But what actually is taking place in this conversation is.
1) Michael is making his statements according to what he thinks JP is preaching, and by what he thinks JP is misconstruing as truth.
2) Sunrise is making her statements in defense of JP, attempting to explain what JP meant by what he said.
3) Neither side of the debate can definitively say, for, or against just what JP’s intention was when he spoke, we can’t know what was in his heart, therefore any conversation about what JP said what JP meant is a circular conversation.
We are told
1Jn 4:1,2
1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Php 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Luk 9:50
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Mat 7:15-20
15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Does Joseph Prince confess Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is Christ preached, forbid him not, but judge his fruit.
Is the Ministry of Joseph Prince riddled with scandal, ie, (divorce, adultery, homosexuality)?
Be Blessed
JIM
You make a lot of good points here, but I for one am not saying "those who believe in Grace are lawless because they have no reason to follow God's laws". That is hogwash.
People who believe in the true grace of God follow after the Spirit of God, and they don't go off seeking to hurt people.
But when we are in violations of the moral law of God, it shows that our embrace of true grace is somewhat lacking.
Lawless people are those who, far from following the Spirit of God, follow their own ungodly lusts, their greed and so on. They may SAY they believe in grace. They may even BELIEVE that grace means they can do these things without condemnation or fear of reproach from God, but such a belief is in fact a FALSE belief. It is inconsistent with the teaching of the New Testament as well as the teaching of true grace.
The Commandment to Love is a MUCH BIGGER THING than just staying out of adultery, dishonesty and so on. If you really walk in love you will seek to please God and never do harm to your neighbour. But a person who feels that God has set things up now so they don't need to be concerned about cheating a neighbour, or defiling themselves with sin, proves that they are not walking in love towards God and others either.
Of course we select Scriptures, but when we INTERPRET those Scriptures in ways which are contradictory to the plain teaching of OTHER Scriptures – esp. New Testament Scriptures, which speak to the issue, our interpretations and our teachings are FALSE and may be extremely DANGEROUS to certain hearers.
I agree with much of what you say here in fact. I would like you to have a read of my most recent article Justification by Faith: What does it mean?
But you said there is only one kind of grace. Well, that may be true in some technical sense, but 1 Peter 4:10 talks about the "manifold grace of God". "Grace" is a much BIGGER word than many realise. It is about all that God does in a person's life. It is not merely some kind of unmerited get-out-of-jail-free card that people can receive or think they receive.
Grace is what empowers the spiritual gifts. Grace is the power of God. Paul frequently talked about the grace given to him as an apostle. This is not the same grace as the grace which saves a person, but it is all from the same God.
I’m glad you quoted this particular Scripture. It says that grace is what brings salvation. It didn’t specify what kind of grace. That is because there is only one kind of grace. What does it say next? It [meaning grace] teaches what? Grace teaches us to say NO to ungodliness and worldly passions, so you don’t have to worry about a believer going hog wild into sin. Grace also teaches us to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives. All of this is actually the work of the Holy Spirit. Next it said that Jesus did what? He redeemed us from ALL wickedness. He doesn’t redeem a person from some of his or her sins, but all of them. His redemption is not temporary, but eternal. He has redeemed us for life. He purified us and made us his very own.
When a person is born into the family of God that person is a babe in Christ. God doesn’t zap that person and make him or her a mature Christian the minute he or she is saved. Maturity takes time. These new Christians are going to have to learn what God wants from them. They cannot learn it all at one time, so they will probably make mistakes along the way. But, God will work with them to conform them to the image of His Son despite their failures.
I will be commenting on your view at the top of the page.
These are your words: “Now Joseph Prince uses the writings of the apostle Paul, in particular verses like Romans 5:17 and other verses about God’s mercy and grace to establish his position. If Joseph Prince and his followers wish to quote the apostle Paul as a source of true inspiration, they should be willing to listen to everything he said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and not just construct something pleasing to the ear out of selected portions of the Scripture. If Prince is a lover of truth, he has to deal with all the New Testament Scriptures and not just some favorite ones.”
If a person is going to preach on grace that person is naturally going to pick verses that pertain to grace. If a person preaches on tithing, that person is going to pick Scriptures that pertain to tithing. If that person is preaching on salvation, that person is going to select verses pertaining to salvation.
Also, I have noticed that you tend to pick Scriptures that relate to what you are talking about. What I am saying is that it is only natural to select passages that pertain to the topic on which one is preaching.
1 John 3: 21-24
” 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is HIS COMMAND: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.”
You say follow the commandments, that IS God’s command. You say, those who believe in Grace are lawless because they have no reason to follow God’s laws. And how can we only believe God’s love and not our love for God. (Summarizing everyone’s comment, not just yours)
1 John 3:9
“9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.”
If you are born again and under his Grace, you do not have a desire to sin anyMORE than any other born-again. We are all the same and I do not try to sin because of God’s love. if he only loves me because of what I can do on my own… imagine. He loves me so that now I can share his love with others. When you’re in LOVE, do you WANT to HURT the one, who LOVES YOU?
1John 4-12
“7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for LOVE COMES FROM GOD.Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because GOD IS LOVE. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: NOT THAT WE LOVED GOD, BUT THAT HE LOVED US and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so LOVED US, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.”
Because God is love and he loves US that I am filled with love and love those around me. His grace.
1John 4
“19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar.”
What is God’s command again?
2 John 1: 4-6
” 4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but ONE we have had from the BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, HIS COMMAND IS THAT YOU WALK IN LOVE”
For me, after my own research (continuous research) I’ve learnt that Grace is the strongest pillar. Because of God’s love, we are saved. Because of God’s love, we love each other. If we love each other, are we going to try to hurt each other? That’s why in John it said, that you must believe in Jesus and love each other. That is the commandment because if you do that, everything follows love.. like helping each other and we are not going to hurt the people we love by disrespecting, robbing, cheating and so forth. Everything you DO, is not forgotten… ‘everything he has is yours’, but God’s love is the key and if you can love as Jesus loves you, you are doing everything he commanded.
1 Corinthian 13: 1-13
“… if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing……13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
The last verse regarding my statement about Grace (love) being the strongest pillar as relating to 1st John I quoted earlier.
Mark 12:28-31
“28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
Actually I don't take major issue to some of the teachings in the Word of Faith movement as they were given say by people like Kenneth E. Hagin. In my view he was a lot more solid than some of those who came afterwards. In fact, towards the end of his life, Hagin rebuked some of the excesses going on with some in the "word of faith" movement, in a book he wrote called "The Midas Touch".
Kenneth Copeland it seems to me mixes truth and error. He always seems to be about exalting his own person more even than the person of Jesus Christ. I really don't care how many aeroplanes Copeland has managed to accumulate out of donations from his "partners". Really we all have to give account of our stewardship and the message about being rich and flaunting it really doesn't excite me at all.
But at least Copeland (moreso his wife) (at times) preach a message of holiness. This is where Joseph Prince is ultra-dangerous, because his core message is that you can enter heaven without really changing.
No matter how much truth might be found in aspects of Joseph Prince's ministry, the fact that he teaches that you can be saved without repentance and overcoming sin makes him extremely dangerous. You can see on this page how some of his fans even MOCK the idea of the fear of God, or the requirement of holy living.
I'm sure Joseph Prince would preach the financial prosperity doctrines, because that is one part of the message you can preach without having any emphasis on really denying yourself and taking up the cross of Christ. It is very pleasing to people whose basic desire in life is to enjoy this world as much as they can and still feel that they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven also when they die.
The Bible talks about what the grace of God REALLY is in certain passages such as this one:
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
15These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
Pastor Joseph Prince’s teaching ain’t any new. What he preaches is the asian-ised version of Kenneth Copeland teachings, word of faith. North America is literary swamped with this, taking different forms from preacher to preacher. Some put more accent on positive confession, others on prosperity, others on healing – a false gospel all together. I can understand why so many defend pastor JP: it takes basic foundational understanding of the Bible for discernment to take place, and that’s something that’s never told in those churches.
In the end it’s all about power and money: when you see that hapenning, revealing the false doctrine is just a matter of exercising your biblical knowlegde.
Praise be to God if indeed it is true that Joseph Prince is leading people back to the simplicity of the need to die to self and not live for the things of this world. Praise be if indeed he is telling people that the grace of the cross will bring us into conflict with the world to the point they will hate and persecute and even kill us! The cross of Jesus is not where we find abundance in this life, it is where we come to trade the ease and comforts of this world, laying hold of an eternal reward that cannot be taken! This is why thousands upon thousands of Christians each year are martyred…. This is why the early church sold all its possessions and held all in common. I am glad to hear that Mr. Prince is not merely teaching things that are pleasing to the ear and that seek to make us comfortable in this world by embracing its lifestyle and its prosperity message while the rest of the world goes to hell because we have spent our resources on ourselves and our mega churches.
There is truth in what you say here. If we become law focussed and focus on our failures we will never get out of the rut of personal condemnation.
God is wanting us to learn to focus on the things of the Spirit, not the things of the flesh, including our own failures. When we focus on Jesus and the things of the Spirit, we don't sin. We need to learn to do this more and more.
We need also to audit our own thoughts a little bit and ask ourselves what we are thinking about. If we ARE thinking about something displeasing to God, we need to turn our attention BACK to the LORD. What I object to is the teaching that we can relax while setting our minds on the things of flesh. Romans 8:5 teaches believers that this is SPIRITUAL DEATH.
Muller and Tozer preached holiness of heart and life as a requirement for following Jesus. Do a google search for "the New Cross Tozer" and you will find that Tozer utterly rebukes the kind of "cross" preached by Joseph Prince. See http://faithbiblechurchnh.org/tozer_new_cross.htm and read it.
Watchman Nee was more ambiguous. His writings are so esoteric and mystical you can come up with all kinds of conclusions by reading them. One moment he is recommending holiness and the next moment he is telling people that the sins they do in the body have no bearing on their salvation.
As for upsetting religious people in his day, the argument cuts both ways. See, the Pharisees were lovers of money, they were in the religious majority, they had more followers than Jesus, and they sat on Moses' seat (see Matthew 23). Its true they put tough rules on people and they were hypocrites. Jesus rebuked them because they made their own man-made traditions more important than the commandments of God. He told them that they were not children of God because they would not listen to His Word. Today, Jesus would also no doubt rebuke many of the leading religious figures in our world – who also "like" money and personal luxury, have huge followings, and teach people to refuse to listen to the sayings of Jesus.
See, once you have a doctrine that says you can do as you please and still enter the Kingdom of Heaven, then you no longer need to receive Jesus as Lord of your life, you just take Him on board (you think) as an occasional lifestyle consultant when things aren't working out too well, or you need more money. This is not Christianity.
Its not about the word "repent". Its about obedience to Christ's commandments. In the book of John, Jesus said:
"He who has my commandments and KEEPS THEM, it is HE who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by My Father, and we will come and make our home in him." (John 14:21)
"If anyone loves me, he will keep my Word" (John 14:23)
Jesus also said in John 8:42
"If God were your Father, ye would love me"
The conclusion from John's writings is clear: If you don't love Jesus, God is not your Father. And if you love Jesus, you will keep His Word. So if you don't think that is necessary, its because you don't know the real Jesus.
Of all apostles, John is one of the most severe on sin. Just read 1 John and you will find this out.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
I hope you can see that the apostle John's writings don't help your cause of spreading the message that obedience to God is not needed for salvation.
As far as having some possessions – yes, many are going to be in trouble for their selfish hoarding of luxury items and their personal indulgence while people are perishing.
But you have to look at these things as a business decision. I already have the cheapest reliable car I can get. Runs on LPG and costs $5000. Negligible maintenance costs. Cheaper clothes? I can run a garage sale and sell my clothes, but what is the cost in time, what is the opportunity cost. Isn't it just better to do something that can earn some money, and then invest excess money in projects the Lord shows?
Also, sometimes, looking cheap and being cheap is counterproductive in terms of getting the results you need in society. Everyone will answer before God for this. Some people might need to drive a fancy car in order to get certain business deals worth a lot more than the car. So it is bad stewardship to be too cheap sometimes.
Concerning grace: it is REAL GRACE that you are denying. You clearly don't think God can give power to live a clean life with clean thoughts. The Bible on the other hand says we have promises and so can "perfect holiness out of reverence for Christ". Grace is divine power and enabling to transform and make holy, amongst other things. You believe a different gospel, one in which Jesus died so you could happily go on living without consequences in ways God throws other people to hell for.
Hmmm….I just heard that a gentleman in Joseph Prince’s church was sitting there wondering if he looked good in the suit he was wearing instead of giving his full mind to the Word of God. Also, a women a few seats over was still simmering inside over an ugly comment her husband had made to her three months ago. And, then one of the people on the front row, yes!, the front row, was running a percentage and payment schedule in his mind concerning a new car he wanted to purchase instead of listening to God’s holy Word. DISGUSTING! I wonder how many sins it takes to separate us from God? And I wonder how bad each one of those sins has to be? Hmmm…….. Maybe you could as Joseph Prince that, too. Satan is having a field day with your mind. As long as satan can keep you thinking about how good or bad you are he’s winning; because he’s taken your mind off of Jesus and put it onto yourself–and ole “Mr/Mis/Mrs. Self” will dissappoint you every time…..and each time Self fails, satan yells “SCORE!!!”.
AMEN!!
Did you know that the word “repent” isn’t even in the book of John? Also, what sin did Jesus ever ask any of those He healed in the scriptures of which to repent before He healed them? None. If repentance is REQUIRED to be accepted into Heaven, then sir/madam, I’d suggest to get to repenting right now. Get on your knees and stay there for the remaining years of your life. You’re probably sinning right now; there are so many evil thoughts bound up within your very soul that you’d spend the rest of your days listing them. The Lord told us that a man’s heart “…is above ALL things utterly wicked….” You’ve (we all) have enough bad thoughts in our SLEEP to send us to Hell with a broken back! Begin praising the Lord and His Son, JESUS and the Holy Spirit that lives within us for the GRACE that has so RICHLY been poured out upon us!!! Hallelujah!! (P.S. I’m wondering if the clothes you’re wearing right now could be donated to the poor? You know, you could probably go to a garage sale and wear cheaper costing clothing and give the rest of the money you’d ordinarily spend on clothing to the poor–will you have to answer to God for that? Also, I’m thinking you could sell your car and buy a less expensive car and give the rest of the money to the poor? Will you have to answer to God for that? How MUCH repenting is “required” to be acceptable? Beloved, our salvation was NOT FREE–because JESUS PAID IT ALL–not ME, not YOU! JESUS! Our salvation has nothing to do with what we DO and everything to do with what JESUS already DID.) Blessings!
Praise be to Jesus for Joseph Prince. He is bringing people back to the cross.
My parents and grandparents are missionaries, although the only boast I really have is in Jesus’ love for me. What Joseph Prince preaches is the real deal. Abundant life with Jesus. If you want to experience God in the way of George Muller, AW Tozer or Watchman Nee- listen to Joseph Prince. Jesus upset a lot of religious people in His day. Praise be to God that Joseph is doing the same, as he leads us back to the simplicity, beauty and grace of the cross.
It is true that the kindness of God brings us to repentance.
We are given time to repent.
Now if it is true that "once we understand Grace and how MUCH God loves us THAT WILL bring us to repentance" then I would like to ask one thing:
"How many people in Joseph Prince's church have really understood grace and how much God loves them?"
Because if they haven't repented, if they are still living according to Galatians 5:17-19 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 then by YOUR definition, they haven't understood grace or God's love.
And that wouldn't be good.
But the Scriptures will stand with integrity forever.
And those who deny that ongoing repentance is necessary for salvation will have to give account to God for what that teaching produced in people's lives.
Wow, Gulfshark I did pray for and will continue!! If you sensed something wrong with Joseph Prince and his preaching, it would be satan tring to steer you away from the TRUTH!! That would HAVE to be the only answer, because Pastor Prince is a truly anointed man of God!! If you purchased a book and cd for $5 I am sure that the cost of the book and cd to his ministry was more than you paid!!! I also know that it was a major investment in your growing in the true knowledge of God, if you read the book and listen to the cd that is!! Not to mention your $5 will help further God’s Kingdom by getting more teaching of God’s Word out to others ! The reason the money amount goes so high is because of people and or businesses who can afford to give that much. If I had it to give to his ministry I would give $50,000 or more!!! Pastor Prince not only reads and speaks from the Bible in his teaching, he breaks it down like no other preacher I’ve listened to! ( I’ve been a believer for 37 years ) when you say he doesn’t read from the Bible he has people who work with him and or for him that put it on the screen for us who watch him on tv, and on overhead monitors for those at his church!! If you need help growing in God’s Word listen to Pastor Prince’s teaching, he is TRULY anointed to preach the Gospel!! Also to Michael , he does teach about repentance. He says ( and I believe it ) once we understand Grace and how MUCH God loves us THAT WILL bring us to repentance!!!
GulfShark- The word meditate means to focus on or to think about. The book of Genesis tells us that Isaac son of Abraham was meditating out in the field when his future wife was arriving. So meditating on the Word of God is not a bad thing is it? I admit I was also taken aback when I saw that title only because of the initial meaning I had learned, which of course had to do with new age crap. (i can call it crap can’t I? because it is!) The devil has perverted the word to mean something evil instead. The devil loves to mock God.
Michael- I don’t think Joseph was talking about intentionally sinning in sermon 240. I think he was more talking about being conscious of the law and how if Jesus makes us dead to the law then we shouldn’t be conscious of how people are breaking the law but should take action when people are obeying the law. Because anyone who puts themselves under the law places themselves under judgement the bible says. They will be trying to earn the forgiveness that Jesus has already paid for us on the cross. Paul rebukes a church for teaching about the law because knowledge of the law destroys faith. And so the miracles that were happening in the church stopped happening. I think that’s more what Josephs concern is about. Not “hey, Jesus died so we are free to sin and get away with it” No, I think his main concern was those people who are still focused on the law instead of Gods grace. Because if you are conscious of the law and feel guilt, then you havn’t fully accepted Jesus work on the cross which cleanses us of our sins. Of course, you also have the other extreme from legalism to liberalism which is the focus of this blog. But as I pointed out, I don’t think Joseph was preaching liberalism.
“You can’t stop the birds flying about your head, but you can stop them from making nests in your hair.” So we are to cast out those people who are proud of teaching the law, or pride in their promiscuity or whatever to protect ourselves from compromising on correct doctrine. I think that’s what the scripture about cutting off parts of the body was all about. “one body in Christ” It was so that that part of the body, that person, can’t drag everyone else down with them. Be it practicing one extreme or the other.
I have heard that the books John, Romans, Thessalonians and Hebrews tell you 75% of what the bible is all about. They focus heavily on doctrine. All we can do is read those and ask the Holy Spirit to give us a discerning heart in it. To meditate on those books. 🙂
If a little leaven leaven’s the whole lump, I would seriously worry about a Church and its leadership that doesn’t have enough anointing to purify the evil leaven out of its Church. Surely the same tools that were available to purify the Corinthian Church are available to us. You ask what tools? Spirit inspired preaching that causes the guilty to cry out, “What shall we do?” and the resounding answer, “repent of that wickedness or we will hand you over to Satan so you can suffer in the flesh till you repent and escape damnation!” and come back to God.
Not a comfortable doctrine that’s for sure, but what do you want? A place where hypocrisy can contaminate the whole Church because the pastor doesn’t have the courage to preach the truth about sin. Or a sense of reverence for purity as is shown in chapter five of Acts.
Act 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them.
You might review your responsibilities in these verses.
I suppose one could email Joseph Prince's ministry and ask them if they believe this is acceptable behavior in their church and what "they" think about it. I have people doing bad things in my church and I suppose to the degree they are deluded, they feel comfortable. That would not be reflective of my pastor's heart or teachings, however… I would be interested to hear their response!
I just heard from a friend of mine here how someone we knew backslid and became apostate because her two sisters were engaging in immoral relationships – one a lesbian relationship, the other as someone's mistress – all while faithfully attending Joseph Prince's church.
Well if Joseph Prince's doctrine is correct, as long as these people "believe in Jesus" and believe they are OK, there is nothing more we can say. We should welcome them as sisters in Christ.
What is the answer to this?
I had heard of Joseph Prince also and have seen his books at my local bookstore. Recently, I watched two episodes of his show and afterward, knew something was not right. He rarely picked up the Bible and read directly from it -only gave out short pieces of scripture to use in the message he was trying to convey.
The ideas he was presenting and overall reasoning he used seemed harmless, but something just did not sit right with me.
I think spiritually or intuitively I felt something was very wrong, but I went on his (JP’s) website and ordered a CD and book of his for a gift 5 dollars. Even then, I became suspicious as the donation choices available under the drop-down menu reached $1 – 50,000 Dollars! What normal person would or could even donate 50 thousand of anything? I don’t know. I dismissed this evidence as some automated “decision” created by the computer program they were using for the website or in the way it was formatted/displayed on the page. I was thinking “maybe these numbers were just automatically listed or something.”
Also the Title of the CD was a little “off” to me: Meditate—Release The Power Of God’s Word. I have only recently been spiritually changed and born again by the spirit (6 months ago last year) and I have experienced such a change of heart and conviction by The Spirit that I now have a thirst for righteousness for the first time in my life.
I still struggle with my temptations, but it seems I have been deceived by Satan in my weakness and decided to purchase this CD even though I ignored what The Spirit may have been telling me. In any case, all I wanted was to grow more in The Word and be able to strengthen myself and defend myself.
If you have read this far, thanks for hearing me out and I ask that you take the time to pray for me for my impulsive financial decisions, that I may be guided more strongly by the spirit of God, and that I may be able to grow more in The Word for the whole truth of the gospel. I pray that no one would have to go through what I have experienced, even though it may seem like a small financial set back to some, I take it as a big wake-up call and a full message to me spiritually.
We really are living in The Last Days!
What more do we need?
Maybe another article.
http://sgforums.com/forums/12/topics/410990