RICHARD BENNETT’S LIFE TESTIMONY
From Tradition to Truth
The Early Years
Born Irish, in a family of eight, my early childhood was fulfilled and happy. My father was a colonel in the Irish Army until he
retired when I was about nine. As a family, we loved to play, sing, and act, all within a military camp in Dublin.
We were a typical Irish Roman Catholic family. My father sometimes knelt down to pray at his bedside in a solemn manner.
My mother would talk to Jesus while sewing, washing dishes, or even smoking a cigarette. Most evenings we would kneel in
the living room to say the Rosary together. No one ever missed Mass on Sundays unless he was seriously ill. By the time I
was about five or six years of age, Jesus Christ was a very real person to me, but so also were Mary and the saints. I can
identify easily with others in traditional Catholic nations in Europe and with Hispanics and Filipinos who put Jesus, Mary,
Joseph, and other saints all in one boiling pot of faith.
The catechism was drilled into me at the Jesuit School of Belvedere, where I had all my elementary and secondary
education. Like every boy who studies under the Jesuits, I could recite before the age of ten five reasons why God existed
and why the Pope was head of the only true Church. Getting souls out of Purgatory was a serious matter. The often quoted
words, "It is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins," were memorized even
though we did not know what these words meant. We were told that the Pope as head of the Church was the most
important man on earth. What he said was law, and the Jesuits were his right-hand men. Even though the Mass was in Latin,
I tried to attend daily because I was intrigued by the deep sense of mystery which surrounded it.
We were told it was the most important way to please God. Praying to saints was encouraged, and we had patron saints for
most aspects of life. I did not make a practise of that, with one exception: St. Anthony, the patron of lost objects, since I
seemed to lose so many things.
When I was fourteen years old, I sensed a call to be a missionary. This call, however, did not affect the way in which I
conducted my life at that time. Age sixteen to eighteen were the most fulfilled and enjoyable years a youth could have. During
this time, I did quite well both academically and athletically.
I often had to drive my mother to the hospital for treatments. While waiting for her, I found quoted in a book these verses
from Mark 10:29-30, "And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or
brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive an
hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and
in the world to come eternal life." Not having any idea of the true salvation message, I decided that I truly did have a call to
be a missionary.
Trying to earn salvation I left my family and friends in 1956 to join the Dominican Order. I spent eight years studying what it
is to be a monk, the traditions of the Church, philosophy, the theology of Thomas Aquinas, and some of the Bible from a
Catholic standpoint. Whatever personal faith I had was institutionalized and ritualized in the Dominican religious system.
Obedience to the law, both Church and Dominican, was put before me as the means of sanctification. I often spoke to
Ambrose Duffy, our Master of Students, about the law being the means of becoming holy. In addition to becoming "holy," I
wanted also to be sure of eternal salvation. I memorized part of the teaching of Pope Pius XII in which he said, "…the
salvation of many depends on the prayers and sacrifices of the mystical body of Christ offered for this intention." This idea of
gaining salvation through suffering and prayer is also the basic message of Fatima and Lourdes, and I sought to win my own
salvation as well as the salvation of others by such suffering and prayer.
In the Dominican monastery in Tallaght, Dublin, I performed many difficult feats to win souls, such as taking cold showers in
the middle of winter and beating my back with a small steel chain. The Master of Students knew what I was doing, his own
austere life being part of the inspiration that I had received from the Pope’s words. With rigor and determination, I studied,
prayed, did penance, tried to keep the Ten Commandments and the multitude of Dominican rules and traditions.
Outward Pomp — Inner Emptiness
Then in 1963 at the age of twenty-five I was ordained a Roman Catholic priest and went on to finish my course of studies of
Thomas Aquinas at The Angelicum University in Rome. But there I had difficulty with both the outward pomp and the inner
emptiness. Over the years I had formed, from pictures and books, pictures in my mind of the Holy See and the Holy City.
Could this be the same city? At the Angelicum University I was also shocked that hundreds of others who poured into our
morning classes seemed quite disinterested in theology. I noticed Time and Newsweek magazines being read during classes.
Those who were interested in what was being taught seemed only to be looking for either degrees or positions within the
Catholic Church in their homelands.
One day I went for a walk in the Colosseum so that my feet might tread the ground where the blood of so many Christians
had been poured out. I walked to the arena in the Forum. I tried to picture in my mind those men and women who knew
Christ so well that they were joyfully willing to be burned at the stake or devoured alive by beasts because of His
overpowering love. The joy of this experience was marred, however, for as I went back in the bus I was insulted by jeering
youths shouting words meaning "scum or garbage." I sensed their motivation for such insults was not because I stood for
Christ as the early Christians did but because they saw in me the Roman Catholic system. Quickly, I put this contrast out of
my mind, yet what I had been taught about the present glories of Rome now seemed very irrelevant and empty.
One night soon after that, I prayed for two hours in front of the main altar in the church of San Clemente. Remembering my
earlier youthful call to be a missionary and the hundredfold promise of Mark 10:29-30, I decided not to take the theological
degree that had been my ambition since beginning study of the theology of Thomas Aquinas. This was a major decision, but
after long prayer I was sure I had decided correctly.
The priest who was to direct my thesis did not want to accept my decision. In order to make the degree easier, he offered
me a thesis written several years earlier. He said I could useit as my own if only I would do the oral defense. This turned my
stomach. It was similar to what I had seen a few weeks earlier in a city park: elegant prostitutes parading themselves in their
black leather boots. What he was offering was equally sinful. I held to my decision, finishing at the University at the ordinary
academic level, without the degree.
On returning from Rome, I received official word that I had been assigned to do a three year course at Cork University. I
prayed earnestly about my missionary call. To my surprise, I received orders in late August 1964 to go to Trinidad, West
Indies, as a missionary.
Pride, Fall, And A New Hunger
On October 1, 1964, I arrived in Trinidad, and for seven years I was a successful priest, in Roman Catholic terms, doing all
my duties and getting many people to come to Mass. By 1972 I had become quite involved in the Catholic Charismatic
Movement. Then, at a prayer meeting on March 16th of that year, I thanked the Lord that I was such a good priest and
requested that if it were His will, He humble me that I might be even better. Later that same evening I had a freak accident,
splitting the back of my head and hurting my spine in many places. Without thus coming close to death, I doubt that I would
ever have gotten out of my self- satisfied state. Rote, set prayer showed its emptiness as I cried out to God in my pain.
In the suffering that I went through in the weeks after the accident, I began to find some comfort in direct personal prayer. I
stopped saying the Breviary (the Roman Catholic Church’s official prayer for clergy) and the Rosary and began to pray using
parts of the Bible itself. This was a very slow process. I did not know my way through the Bible and the little I had learned
over the years had taught me more to distrust it rather than to trust it. My training in philosophy and in the theology of
Thomas Aquinas left me helpless, so that coming into the Bible now to find the Lord was like going into a huge dark woods
without a map.
When assigned to a new parish later that year, I found that I was to work side-by-side with a Dominican priest who had
been a brother to me over the years. For more than two years we were to work together, fully seeking God as best we
knew in the parish of Pointe-a-Pierre. We read, studied, prayed, and put into practise what we had been taught in Church
teaching. We built up communities in Gasparillo, Claxton Bay, and Marabella, just to mention the main villages. In a Catholic
religious sense we were very successful. Many people attended Mass. The Catechism was taught in many schools, including
government schools. I continued my personal search into the Bible, but it did not much affect the work we were doing; rather
it showed me how little I really knew about the Lord and His Word. It was at this time that Philippians 3:10 became the cry
of my heart, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection…."
About this time the Catholic Charismatic movement was growing, and we introduced it into most of our villages. Because of
this movement, some Canadian Christians came to Trinidad to share with us. I learned much from their messages, especially
about praying for healing. The whole impact of what they said was very experience-oriented but was truly a blessing, insofar,
as it got me deeply into the Bible as an authority source. I began to compare scripture with scripture and even to quote
chapter and verse! One of the texts the Canadians used was Isaiah 53:5, "…and with his stripes we are healed." Yet in
studying Isaiah 53, I discovered that the Bible deals with the problem of sin by means of substitution. Christ died in my place.
It was wrong for me to try to expidite or try to cooperate in paying the price of my sin.
"If by grace, it is no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace.." Romans 11:6. "All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).
One particular sin of mine was getting annoyed with people, sometimes even angry. Although I asked forgiveness for my
sins, I still did not realize that I was a sinner by the nature which we all inherit from Adam. The scriptural truth is, "As it is
written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10), and "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
(Romans 3:23). The Catholic Church, however, had taught me that the depravity of man, which is called "original sin," had
been washed away by my infant baptism. I still held this belief in my head, but in my heart I knew that my depraved nature
had not yet been conquered by Christ.
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection…" (Philippians 3:10) continued to be the cry of my heart. I knew
that it could be only through His power that I could live the Christian life. I posted this text on the dashboard of my car and in
other places. It became the plea that motivated me, and the Lord who is Faithful began to answer.
The Ultimate Question
First, I discovered that God’s Word in the Bible is absolute and without error. I had been taught that the Word is relative and
that its truthfulness in many areas was to be questioned. Now I began to understand that the Bible could, in fact, be trusted.
With the aid of Strong’s Concordance, I began to study the Bible to see what it says about itself. I discovered that the Bible
teaches clearly that it is from God and is absolute in what it says. It is true in its history, in the promises God has made, in its
prophecies, in the moral commands it gives, and in how to live the Christian life. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be
perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16-17).
This discovery was made while visiting in Vancouver, B.C., and in Seattle. When I was asked to talk to the prayer group in
St. Stephen’s Catholic Church, I took as my subject the absolute authority of God’s Word. It was the first time that I had
understood such a truth or talked about it. I returned to Vancouver, B.C. and in a large parish Church, before about 400
people, I preached the same message. Bible in hand, I proclaimed that "the absolute and final authority in all matters of faith
and morals is the Bible, God’s own Word."
Three days later, the archbishop of Vancouver, B.C., James Carney, called me to his office. I was then officially silenced and
forbidden to preach in his archdiocese. I was told that my punishment would have been more severe, were it not for the
letter of recommendation I had received from my own archbishop, Anthony Pantin. Soon afterwards I returned to Trinidad.
Church-Bible Dilemma
While I was still parish priest of Point-a-Pierre, Ambrose Duffy, the man who had so strictly taught me while he was Student
Master, was asked to assist me. The tide had turned. After some initial difficulties, we became close friends. I shared with
him what I was discovering. He listened and commented with great interest and wanted to find out what was motivating me. I
saw in him a channel to my Dominican brothers and even to those in the Archbishop’s house.
When he died suddenly of a heart attack, I was stricken with grief. In my mind, I had seen Ambrose as the one who could
make sense out of the Church-Bible dilemma with which I so struggled. I had hoped that he would have been able to explain
to me and then to my Dominican brothers the truths with which I wrestled. I preached at his funeral and my despair was very
deep.
I continued to pray Philippians 3:10, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection…." But to learn more about
Him, I had first to learn about myself as a sinner. I saw from the Bible (I Timothy 2:5) that the role I was playing as a priestly
mediator — exactly what the Catholic Church teaches but exactly opposite to what the Bible teaches — was wrong. I really
enjoyed being looked up to by the people and, in a certain sense, being idolized by them. I rationalized my sin by saying that
after all, if this is what the biggest Church in the world teaches, who am I to question it? Still, I struggled with the conflict
within. I began to see the worship of Mary, the saints, and the priests for the sin that it is. But while I was willing to renounce
Mary and the saints as mediators, I could not renounce the priesthood, for in that I had invested my whole life.
Tug-Of-War Years
Mary, the saints, and the priesthood were just a small part of the huge struggle with which I was working. Who was Lord of
my life, Jesus Christ in His Word or the Roman Church? This ultimate question raged inside me especially during my last six
years as parish priest of Sangre Grande (1979-1985). That the Catholic Church was supreme in all matters of faith and
morals had been dyed into my brain since I was a child. It looked impossible ever to change.
Rome was not only supreme but always called "Holy Mother." How could I ever go against "Holy Mother," all the more so
since I had an official part in dispensing her sacraments and keeping people faithful to her? In 1981, I actually rededicated
myself to serving the Roman Catholic Church while attending a parish renewal seminar in New Orleans. Yet when I returned
to Trinidad and again became involved in real life problems, I began to return to the authority of God’s Word. Finally the
tension became like a tug-of-war inside me. Sometimes I looked to the Roman Church as being absolute, sometimes to the
authority of the Bible as being final. My stomach suffered much during those years; my emotions were being torn. I ought to
have known the simple truth that one cannot serve two masters. My working position was to place the absolute authority of
the Word of God under the supreme authority of the Roman Church.
This contradiction was symbolized in what I did with the four statues in the Sangre Grande Church. I removed and broke the
statues of St. Francis and St. Martin because the second commandment of God’s Law declares in Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt
not make unto thee any graven image…." But when some of the people objected to my removal of the statues of the Sacred
Heart and of Mary, I left them standing because the higher authority, i.e., the Roman Catholic Church, said in its law Canon
1188: "The practise of displaying sacred images in the churches for the veneration of the faithful is to remain in force."
I did not see that what I was trying to do was to make God’s Word subject to man’s word. My Own Fault While I had
learned earlier that God’s Word is absolute, I still went through this agony of trying to maintain the Roman Catholic Church
as holding more authority than God’s Word, even in issues where the Church of Rome was saying the exact opposite to what
was in the Bible.
How could this be? First of all, it was my own fault. If I had accepted the authority of the Bible as supreme, I would have
been convicted by God’s Word to give up my priestly role as mediator, but that was too precious to me. Second, no one
ever questioned what I did as a priest.
Christians from overseas came to Mass, saw our sacred oils, holy water, medals, statues, vestments, rituals, and never said a
word! The marvelous style, symbolism, music, and artistic taste of the Roman Church was all very captivating. Incense not
only smells pungent, but to the mind it spells mystery.
The Turning Point
One day, a woman challenged me (the only Christian ever to challenge me in all my 22 years as a priest), "You Roman
Catholics have a form of godliness, but you deny its power." Those words bothered me for some time because the lights,
banners, folk music, guitars, and drums were dear to me. Probably no priest on the whole island of Trinidad had as colorful
robes, banners, and vestments as I had. Clearly I did not apply what was before my eyes.
In October 1985, God’s grace was greater than the lie that I was trying to live. I went to Barbados to pray over the
compromise that I was forcing myself to live. I felt truly trapped. The Word of God is absolute indeed. I ought to obey it
alone; yet to the very same God I had vowed obedience to the supreme authority of the Catholic Church. In Barbados I
read a book in which was explained the Biblical meaning of Church as "the fellowship of believers." In the New Testament
there is no hint of a hierarchy; "Clergy" lording it over the "laity" is unknown. Rather, it is as the Lord Himself declared "…one
is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matthew 23:8).
Now to see and to understand the meaning of church as "fellowship" left me free to let go of the Roman Catholic Church as
supreme authority and depend on Jesus Christ as Lord. It began to dawn on me that in Biblical terms, the Bishops I knew in
the Catholic Church were not Biblical believers. They were for the most part pious men taken up with devotion to Mary and
the Rosary and loyal to Rome, but not one had any idea of the finished work of salvation, that Christ’s work is done, that
salvation is personal and complete. They all preached penance for sin, human suffering, religious deeds, "the way of man"
rather than the Gospel of grace. But by God’s grace I saw that it was not through the Roman Church nor by any kind of
works that one is saved, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of
works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
New Birth at Age 48
I left the Roman Catholic Church when I saw that life in Jesus Christ was not possible while remaining true to Roman
Catholic doctrine. In leaving Trinidad in November 1985, I only reached neighboring Barbados. Staying with an elderly
couple, I prayed to the Lord for a suit and necessary money to reach Canada, for I had only tropical clothing and a few
hundred dollars to my name. Both prayers were answered without making my needs known to anyone except the Lord.
From a tropical temperature of 90 degrees, I landed in snow and ice in Canada. After one month in Vancouver, I came to
the United States of America. I now trusted that He would take care of my many needs, since I was beginning life anew at
48 years of age, practically penniless, without an alien resident card, without a driver’s license, without a recommendation of
any kind, having only the Lord and His Word.
I spent six months with a Christian couple on a farm in Washington State. I explained to my hosts that I had left the Roman
Catholic Church and that I had accepted Jesus Christ and His Word in the Bible as all-sufficient. I had done this, I said,
"absolutely, finally, definitively, and resolutely." Yet far from being impressed by these four adverbs, they wanted to know if
there was any bitterness or hurt inside me. In prayer and in great compassion, they ministered to me, for they themselves had
made the transition and knew how easily one can become embittered. Four days after I arrived in their home, by God’s
grace I began to see in repentance the fruit of salvation. This meant being able not only to ask the Lord’s pardon for my
many years of compromising but also to accept His healing where I had been so deeply hurt. Finally, at age 48, on the
authority of God’s Word alone, by grace alone, I accepted Christ’s substitutionary death on the Cross alone. To Him alone
be the glory.
Having been refurbished both physically and spiritually by this Christian couple together with their family, I was provided a
wife by the Lord, Lynn, born-again in faith, lovely in manner, intelligent in mind. Together we set out for Atlanta, Georgia,
where we both got jobs.
A Real Missionary With A Real Message
In September 1988, we left Atlanta to go as missionaries to Asia. It was a year of deep fruitfulness in the Lord that once I
would never have thought was possible. Men and women came to know the authority of the Bible and the power of Christ’s
death and resurrection. I was amazed at how easy it is for the Lord’s grace to be effective when only the Bible is used to
present Jesus Christ. This contrasted with the cobwebs of church tradition that had so clouded my 21 years in missionary
garments in Trinidad, 21 years without the real message.
To explain the abundant life of which Jesus spoke and which I now enjoy, no better words could be used than those of
Romans 8:1-2: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but
after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." It is not just
that I have been freed from the Roman Catholic system, but that I have become a new creature in Christ. It is by the grace of
God, and nothing but His grace, that I have gone from dead works into new life.
Testimony to the Gospel of Grace
Back in 1972, when some Christians had taught me about the Lord healing our bodies, how much more helpful it would have
been had they explained to me on what authority our sinful nature is made right with God. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus
substituted for us on the cross. I cannot express it better than Isaiah 53:5: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he
was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." (This means
that Christ took on himself what I ought to suffer for my sins. Before the Father, I trust in Jesus as my substitute.)
That was written 750 years before the crucifixion of our Lord. A short time after the sacrifice of the cross, the Bible states in
I Peter 2:24: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto
righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
Because we inherited our sin nature from Adam, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. How can we stand
before a Holy God — except in Christ — and acknowledge that He died where we ought to have died? God gives us the
faith to be born again, making it possible for us to acknowledge Christ as our substitute. It was Christ who paid the price for
our sins: sinless, yet He was crucified. This is the true Gospel message. Is faith enough? Yes, born-again faith is enough. That
faith, born of God, will result in good works including repentance: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto
good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
In repenting, we put aside, through God’s strength, our former way of life and our former sins. It does not mean that we
cannot sin again, but it does mean that our position before God has changed. We are called children of God, for so indeed
we are. If we do sin, it is a relationship problem with the Father which can be resolved, not a problem of losing our position
as a child of God in Christ, for this position is irrevocable. In Hebrews 10:10, the Bible says it so wonderfully: "…we are
sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
The finished work of Christ Jesus on the Cross is sufficient and complete. As you trust solely in this finished work, a new life
which is born of the Spirit will be yours — you will be born again.
The Present Day
My present task: the good work that the Lord has prepared for me to do is as an evangelist situated in the Pacific Northwest
of the U.S.A. What Paul said about his fellow Jews I say about my dearly loved Catholic brothers: my heart’s desire and
prayer to God for Catholics is that they may be saved. I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is
not based in God’s Word but in their church tradition. If you understand the devotion and agony that some of our brothers
and sisters in the Philippines and South America have put into their religion, you may understand my heart’s cry: "Lord, give
us a compassion to understand the pain and torment of the search our brothers and sisters have made to please You. In
understanding pain inside the Catholic hearts, we will have the desire to show them the Good News of Christ’s finished work
on the Cross."
My testimony shows how difficult it was for me as a Catholic to give up Church tradition, but when the Lord demands it in
His Word, we must do it. The "form of godliness" that the Roman Catholic Church has makes it most difficult for a Catholic
to see where the real problem lies. Everyone must determine by what authority we know truth. Rome claims that it is only by
her own authority that truth is known. In her own words, Cannon 212, Section 1, "The Christian faithful, conscious of their
own responsibility, are bound by Christian obedience to follow what the sacred pastors, as representatives of Christ, declare
as teachers of the faith or determine as leaders of the Church." (Vatican Council II based, Code of Canon Law promulgated
by Pope John-Paul II, 1983).
Yet according to the Bible, it is God’s Word itself which is the authority by which truth is known. It was man-made traditions
which caused the Reformers to demand "the Bible only, faith only, grace only, in Christ only, and to God only be the glory."
The Reason Why I Share
I share these truths with you now so that you can know God’s way of salvation. Our basic fault as Catholics is that we
believe that somehow we can of ourselves respond to the help God gives us to be right in His sight. This presupposition that
many of us have carried for years is aptly defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) #2021, "Grace is the help
God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons…."
With that mindset, we were unknowingly holding to a teaching that the Bible continually condemns. Such a definition of grace
is man’s careful fabrication, for the Bible consistently declares that the believer’s right standing with God is "without works"
(Romans 4:6), "without the deeds of the Law" (Romans 3:28), "not of works" (Ephesians 2:9), "It is the gift of God,"
(Ephesians 2:8). To attempt to make the believer’s response part of his salvation and to look upon grace as "a help" is to
flatly deny Biblical truth,
"…if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace…" (Romans 11:6). The simple Biblical message
is that "the gift of righteousness" in Christ Jesus is a gift, resting on His all-sufficient sacrifice on the cross, "For if by one
man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall
reign in life by one, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:17).
So it is as Christ Jesus Himself said, He died in place of the believer, the One for many (Mark 10:45), His life a ransom for
many. As He declared, …this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew
26:28). This is also what Peter proclaimed, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might
bring us to God…" (I Peter 3:18).
Paul’s preaching is summarized at the end of II Corinthians 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.." (II Cor. 5:21).
This fact, dear reader, is presented clearly to you in the Bible. Acceptance of it is now commanded by God, "…Repent ye,
and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
The most difficult repentance for us dyed-in-the-wool Catholics is changing our mind from thoughts of "meriting," "earning,"
"being good enough," simply to accepting with empty hands the gift of righteousness in Christ Jesus. To refuse to accept what
God commands is the same sin as that of the religious Jews of Paul’s time, "For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness,
and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
(Romans 10:3)
Repent and believe the Good News!
Richard Bennett
A native of Ireland he returned there in 1996 on an evangelistic tour. He now lives in Portland Oregon U.S.A. He teaches a
workshop at Multnomah Bible College on "Catholicism in the Light of Biblical Truth." His greatest joy is door-to-door
witnessing . He has produced three series of radio broadcasts. A fourth series is about to begin in the Philippines on
D.W.T.I. and D.V. R .O. radio stations. He is co-editor of this book and founder of the ministry named "Berean Beacon."
Richard M. Bennett Berean Beacon P.O. Box 192 Del Valle, TX 78617-0192 WebPage: www.bereanbeacon.org Email: [email protected]
YES,YES,YES all to JESUS I GIVE,let my live be pleasing to you.
GOD bless u as you walk with God by his Spirit the word of GOD comes alive ( Christ in you the hope of Glory ) WOW yes it is true. At the Cross I first met the LORD JESUS CHRIST and my SIN rolled away ( taken,forgiven,moved by his BLOOD ) . NOW I just TRUST and OBEY for there is no other WAY ( JESUS said ” I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE”. I hear the word GOD say “will you come to a place where self can not come and flesh has to die? Where the spirit is all and GOD is LORD of ALL “? From a friend in JESUS
I too used to be a devoted catholic. I volunteer to church and together with my family we make sure to never miss Sunday mass. But during my college days a catholic friend of mine has announced that she has become born-again and that word always puzzles me because I can hear the elders of my family and some friends joke about it. “How can someone be born again? Do they go back to their mother’s womb?” they say with a hint of mockery. Then my friend started to preach about Jesus in our dormitory and I see each one leave her room with tears of joy. But I was not curious at all, for I was a self righteous, I thought I don’t need to know what they’ve heard from her “as long as I know and I believe there is GOD, I’m a good person”. How foolish I was at that time, my prideful heart refuse to listen to my friend even with so much persuasion from my dormates who heard the Gospel. I was even like Paul, I together with my 2 friends persecuted her. We laughed at her when she comes home with her bible in hand. But all the while she was praying for us even cry out to God to open our hearts. One night, my sister who shares a room with me pleaded that I should hear the message. I laughed at her and just so to shut her up I complied and even joked to have everyone prepare a towel to dry my tears after. So we went to a room with one of my friend (the friend who’s with me in persecuting our born-again friend) who has now also become on fire for Jesus. I realized that I am a sinner and I cannot save myself, that I need a Savior and HE died on the cross to pay for my sins. I don’t know what happened that night but I was weeping and I felt the hands of God comforting me. Even when I was already in my room, I still cried a lot. I could not imagine for someone to die for me. That night I understood the cross. I finally understood why Jesus died. Before, when I watch the Passion of the Cross movie, I cried because I see a man being crucified on the cross without doing anything bad but finally that night I was crying because of the weight of HIS love. Still my heart says I can accept Jesus and still be a Catholic believer. So I continue to go to catholic church every Sunday and with much gusto this time. But one Sunday my friend invited me to go to a born- again church, still my heart was hesitant. I felt like I’d be betraying my family and the faith I have known from infancy, so I bargained with her 🙂 I’ll go to their church if we go to catholic church together after the service to which they obliged! What happen during the service is my friend and I were crying so hard. We could not grasp the love of God for us. Then my prideful heart still don’t want to give up I still insisted we go to Catholic church and from there something within me was bothered when I looked at the different statues displayed. They have saint for doctors, saint for farmers, and even saints for different places in the Philippines, I looked at each one and my heart was so troubled. The trouble was because I’m starting to ask if JESUS is the only way the truth and the life and no one comes to the FATHER except through HIM then why did we have all these saints? It’s then I knew that the promised Holy Spirit was working inside of me and I begin to hunger and thirst for more of JESUS 🙂 When my family knew about my conversion they threatened me that they will stop providing for me for my studies and even called me a hypocrite and a lot of things but the more they persecute me the more I felt closer to the truth. Now my heart also goes out to all Catholics who are still blinded by tradition.
God’s church has never been a particular organization but those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. The book of Revelation says His church hid in the wilderness – the only way to maintain purity and safety against the politicoreligious organization known as the Roman Catholic church who murdered so many heretics that only God knows their number. The Roman Catholic church never hid in the wilderness. She was drunk on the blood of the saints with her seat on the world’s ancient capital, Rome.
This is the same thing the heathens did. They knew that not every bit of stone formed into an idol could be Baal but that they were worshiping the power represented by the idol. The prohibition in the second commandment wasn’t just against heathen deities either but even images of those in Heaven.
It is no surprise as the Catholic church came to prominence by mixing heathen beliefs with Christianity in order to create a “universal” or “Catholic” church where both heathens and Christians could worship together.
Yup she tested it all right, in Matthew 23:9.
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
The Catholics have their unbiblical alternative to tithing called “indulgences”.
James said faith without works is dead. He didn’t say works got you to Heaven. You can never earn salvation. He was simply stating that for one who has faith in God, good works will naturally result.
And “works” aren’t saying the number of rosaries prescribed by the local priest. Where is the rosary even once found in the Bible? Mary is mentioned in one chapter outside the gospels stating she and the brothers of Jesus were present during a prayer session. After this brief mention in Acts 1 she is never again mentioned, yet the Catholic church makes her the focus of their religion above Christ Himself.
My Goodness gracious. How can one read the Bible and believe all we have to do is accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior and we are as white as snow, as clean as linen, as pure as an innocent lamb? Clearly even St. Paul struggled with his sinfulness. Scripture is clear that we are all on a journey towards holiness and purity. St. Paul bemoaned his sinfulness. He was the king of all sinners, according to him. Does anyone in their right mind think they could fall over dead right this moment and look upon the incredible glory of GOD? The people couldn’t even look at moses after encountering God.
Nothing impure can enter heaven. Purification is not accepting God. It is a process of renouncing sin and removing all vestiges of it and its effects from our soul. The images of being purified as gold in a furnace are as accurate as anything could be. I feel the need for purification after death. I would not want to look at God in my present state. Perhaps someone holier than I could. John Paul II is the closest thing I could imagine of a pure Christian. Only God knows our hearts though. This calls not only for scriptural evidence, but also a little common sense, don’t you think? Why do protestants continue to deny a teaching from God’s Church that goes back to the earliest of the Bishops of Rome, our Blessed Popes, shepards and guardians of the truth of Jesus Christ’s doctrines. The reformation was a revolt against something God said the gates of hell would not prevail against, His Church. Amen
My Goodness gracious. How can one read the Bible and believe all we have to do is accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior and we are as white as snow, as clean as linen, as pure as an innocent lamb? Clearly even St. Paul struggled with his sinfulness. Scripture is clear that we are all on a journey towards holiness and purity. St. Paul bemoaned his sinfulness. He was the king of all sinners, according to him. Does anyone in their right mind think they could fall over dead right this moment and look upon the incredible glory of GOD? The people couldn’t even look at moses after encountering God.
Nothing impure can enter heaven. Purification is not accepting God. It is a process of renouncing sin and removing all vestiges of it and its effects from our soul. The images of being purified as gold in a furnace are as accurate as anything could be. I feel the need for purification after death. I would not want to look at God in my present state. Perhaps someone holier than I could. John Paul II is the closest thing I could imagine of a pure Christian. Only God knows our hearts though. This calls not only for scriptural evidence, but also a little common sense, don’t you think? Why do protestants continue to deny a teaching from God’s Church that goes back to the earliest of the Bishops of Rome, our Blessed Popes, shepards and guardians of the truth of Jesus Christ’s doctrines. The reformation was a revolt against something God said the gates of hell would not prevail against, His Church. Amen
http://www.catholicity.com/cds/hahn.html
Dear Brother Jim I hope the following answers your questions:
1. “You have to understand the concept, “The act of forgiveness”, “Is the act of forgetting.”How then does, or can God punish us for something He has already forgotten? That would be an, act of an unjust God, a God that would punish for something He Himself, has already forgiven.” Brother, I have already shared that principle with you 1 Samuel 12 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die.” Brother Jim, do you really want to uphold that this act from the Old Testament was the “act of an unjust God”?? There is a tendency, particularly in Protestant circles, to think of sin as having only one consequence: guilt and the possibility of hell. If guilt is forgiven, one will go to heaven; if one’s guilt is not forgiven, one will go to hell. Protestants admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. Scripture tells us that that guilt is not the only result of sin. The book of Hebrews contains a meditation on the fact that God still rebukes and disciplines his children in order to produce holiness in them, stating that “he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness” even though “for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant” (Heb. 12:10–11).
2) “So we see, Paul writes to the Philippians mentioning to them, those people that were alive and working with him, already had their names written in the Book of Life. This means, there would be no lingering impurities, having to be taken care of in Purgatory, they had already received from Jesus, the desired holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” by His vicarious death.” I agree with that they had their name in the Book Of Life, but you are now stretching what scripture says to suggest there is no lingering impurity in them (see also below on 6. sanctification). Your response also starts encroaching into the territory of One Saved Always Saved, which since you seem to suggest you know what your judgement will be then I conclude that you believe you cannot lose your salvation. The problem with this is the inability to explain those who fall away. If, upon believing, our names are indelibly written in the Book of Life, then those who fall away by renouncing their faith or by moral conduct inconsistent with a Christian profession (such as described in James 2:17) never had true faith. In Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”, Why? Why fear, why tremble, surely it’s a done deal? Now, before we get into verse slinging on this topic let’s raise John 10:28 How could I lose my salvation if Jesus said that no one could snatch me out of God’s hand? In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why. Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is “cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned” (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain. Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of “once saved always saved”
3) Matthew 5:26 “But taking this the way you have, it is out of context, the context of where this appears is important to fully come to a true understanding of the verse” Brother, you are misquoting me, I did not mention Matthew 5:26, let alone take it out of context. If you check my posting you will see that I in fact have quoted from Matthew 18:23-35 Matthew 18:23-35 (New International Version) 23″Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[a] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26″The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28″But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[b] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. 29″His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ 30″But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32″Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35″This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” So the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. Although the debt was cancelled it was reinstated because the servant did not have mercy on his fellow servant and he was turned over to the jailers until he paid back all he owed. Q. Brother, can you please explain to me where in your view the jailers of the wicked servant are please? Heaven, Hell or on Earth? I also notice you did not address: 1 Pet. 3:18-20 “…He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built” Q. Brother, I ask again were these spirits in Heaven, Hell or on Earth?
4) “”The statement that Purgatory only became a dogma at the Council of Trent, or by Pope Gregory in 600AD, or the Council of Florence in 1439, …” bfhu.wordpress.com/2007/…/where-is-purgatory-in-scripture/” The efficacy of prayers for the dead was mentioned by Tertullian (160-22- A.D.) who considered this to be a long-established belief in the Church. Feel free to look it up. At the time of the Protestant reformation the Council of Trent reaffirmed this ancient and universally held belief, saying that Mass may be offered ‘for the departed in Christ who are not fully cleansed’, and in its decree on purgatory (1563 A.D.) the Council repeated the passage quoted above from the Creed of Pius V and added: ‘the same doctrine of purgatory, handed down from the holy Fathers and the sacred Councils, is to be believed and taught’. In general, doctrine is all Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. Dogma is more narrowly defined as that part of doctrine which has been divinely revealed and which the Church has formally defined and declared to be believed as revealed.
5) “Are you unaware of the fact, Salvation was not available to mankind, until the Sacrificial Death of Christ? As far as the Orthodox Jews of today are concerned, the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months is still said because they as a people have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah, let alone having accepted Him as their Savior. They die in their sins. Those that have accepted Christ, are dead to the law, having been forgiven. Having taken our sin, and our punishment for those sins” Brother our Christian faith is built upon the Jewish faith; otherwise there would be no need for the Old Testament. Christ brought about the fulfilment of the Jewish faith.
6) “Having read these scriptures, You can clearly see, “A person “IS SANCTIFIED” upon conversion” Brother, am I understanding this correctly, are you suggesting we are made perfect/holy the moment we convert? If so, where in Rom 15:16, Heb 10:10, Heb 10:14, Jud 1:1 does it state that? “Where within these verses, do you see any hint of an ongoing process of Sanctification?” Brother, “Hebrews 12:10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.” Instant holiness upon conversion? “Romans 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness”…leading to holiness, instant holiness upon conversion? “Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.” Instant holiness upon conversion? “Hebrews 12:14[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Instant holiness upon conversion?
Dear Brother, I respect your views and I hope this helps. Quoting JIM “We stand in two differing positions, two positions that are diametrically opposed, lets reason together, then through the leading of the Holy Ghost, come to the truth. We are to come out of the darkness, unto His marvelous light.”
God bless and for the journey.
Hi Andrews
you say
I note that you are quoting from the King James version.
answer
I note that you are quoting from everybody, and everything but the bible.
you say
“Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
answer
H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah’-yim, shaw-meh’
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): – air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).
Personally have never misunderstood the bible was saying (Heavens) plural. Never having any problem in reading Ye Ole English, whenever I have any difficulties, it is a definition of a word, not some Old English phrase. I don’t read the Bible, without having my concordance beside me.
I would be more than happy to discuss my opinion on the KJV, as opposed to all So called Translations at some later date, now is not the time.
you say
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,”
answer
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Lets see, what other religion in Christendom uses the “The Catechism of the Catholic Church” as
authority in religious matters?
You say the KJV is archaic, out of date. But I say it is the Bible, where the Catechism is nothing more than another Commentary, no different than the Matthew Henry Commentary, which I would not ever attempt to portray as Authority. The writings held within the pages of your Catechism, are only relevant to you personally, and as they relate to your Catholic Religion. They are not held in the same esteem, or with the same regard, as you hold them.
You use such terms such as Mortal sin, venial sin.
As I have stated before, these beliefs all come from a lack of understanding the fullness of the Sacrifice Jesus made for our souls. (Salvation)
While you are correct when you say.
Rev 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
You then go on to make presupposition, and assumption about what hasn’t been accomplished by Jesus, the leaving of impurities that only we can work off in Purgatory, Jesus said to Peter,
Joh 13:10
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
you go no to the two judgements
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be.
answer
This is where you lose it, I know where I’m going “NOW” I don’t have to wait for the Particular Judgement to find out.
Joh 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Rom 8:2-6
2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1Co 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Now coming to the General Judgement, I again concur with you assessment, this event will also take place. But as I have said before, this is where you lose it. Lets go back to your text of.
Rev 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Take particular note of the end of the verse,- – – >”but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
When a person accepts Jesus as Savior, he has his name written in the Lambs Book of Life,
I don’t believe we could have our names written, unless we were every whit clean as Jesus said to Peter. But don’t just take my word for it.
Php 4:3
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, (WHOSE NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE).
So we see, Paul writes to the Philippians mentioning to them, those people that were alive and working with him, already had their names written in the Book of Life.
This means, there would be no lingering impurities, having to be taken care of in Purgatory, they had already received from Jesus, the desired holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” by His vicarious death.
Col 1:22
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Tell me what is left in us, when you can now be presented to God by Jesus as, unblameable, and unreproveable?
you say
How does this scripture fit your Heaven or Hell only philosophy?
Luke 12:59
“I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite
answer
That sounds like you feel as though you have just made your case, and to tell you the truth it also sounds a little smug. But I never let that deter me.
You use this scripture as the proof text of your supposed existence of Purgatory.
I have found the same scripture, in another book.
Mat 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
But taking this the way you have, it is out of context, the context of where this appears is important to fully come to a true understanding of the verse. I will supply the beginning, so every one will know what is actually being spoken about.
Mat 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The context of your verse is in relation to the relationships one is to have with others, and why.
These verses I have used are found in Chapter 5 of Matthew where Jesus gives all kinds of teaching on the old testament beliefs. In other words Jesus was showing the people the difference between the “Letter of the Law, and the Spirit of the Law.” When you keep reading you come to the lords prayer. Matt. 6 where He says
Mat 6:12
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Jesus then goes on to explain,
Mat 6:14,15
14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
That is what was meant by, paying the uttermost mite. You become your own judge, and sentence yourself to a lifetime of being unforgiven. You are the jailer, you ultimately determine how long you stay in jail, but that isn’t by any stretch of the imagination, Purgatory. Because it will all happen here, while you are still alive.
I guess my “Heaven or Hell only philosophy” is still intact.
you say
Why No Protests?
answer
The fact there are no protests recorded, does not validate the existence.
What I would believe more than anything about the doctrine, is that it is in actuality a “DOGMA” of the Catholic Church. Then I researched it and came up with this.
“The statement that Purgatory only became a dogma at the Council of Trent, or by Pope Gregory in 600AD, or the Council of Florence in 1439, …”
bfhu.wordpress.com/2007/…/where-is-purgatory-in-scripture/
Is there any wonder there are no protests. No conformation in Bible
The mention of Limbo, does not validate Purgatory, because Limbo isn’t mentioned either, two negatives, do not equal a positive. The “Heaven or Hell only philosophy” has not been shaken.
The discussion of the existence of Limbo is as the discussion of the KJV, another time.
you say
“Purgatory Not in Scripture”
Answer
You go on to use the belief of the trinity as a proof that Purgatory exists, on the same grounds,
The Trinity is not inferred, by some obscure verse. Rater these two verses, are but a sampling that this doctrine is not mere speculation. A false doctrine cannot be legitimized, by placing it along side of a true doctrine, saying they have similarities, because both are not mentioned in scripture.
Joh 17:21,22
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
you say
Matt. 12:32) suggests that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.
answer
This verse is clearly about the sin of blasphemy, because the Holy Spirit never speaks of Himself, but always lifts up Jesus, glorifying the Father in the son, through signs, and wonders, never defending Himself. Therefore God will not forgive those that speak against the Holy Spirit.
The suggestion as you call it, is mere assumption. Where else in scripture can you find anything, which would back up such a claim?
you say
Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test?
answer
Your scripture Is not speaking of a mans work being judged after death, it is speaking of a mans work being constantly tried as he lives. But to answer your question, the righteous mans work that fails the test, is burned up as with fire, he will suffer loss, here and now, not in Purgatory. Yet he himself will still be saved.
The Catholic doctrine of purgatory, does not even come close to explaining this passage, as you suppose. It is a complete misinterpretation, does not come anywhere close to it’s true meaning.
Following is the comparison of these two scriptures.
Jesus’ teaching
Mat 7:24-27
24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26) And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Paul’s teaching
1Co 3:10-15
10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Heaven or Hell only philosophy, still standing.
Any discussion on the book of the Maccabees is a moot discussion, what other Denominations recognize this book?
you say
Prayers for the dead was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees
Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months
answer
Are you unaware of the fact, Salvation was not available to mankind, until the Sacrificial Death of Christ?
As far as the Orthodox Jews of today are concerned, the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months is still said because they as a people have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah, let alone having accepted Him as their Savior. They die in their sins.
Those that have accepted Christ, are dead to the law, having been forgiven.
Having taken our sin, and our punishment for those sins.
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Gal 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
While the Jews did not then, nor do they today, accept Him (Jesus) as their Massiah, Savior, and Lord.
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
So once again we see that this supposed doctrine, does not pass muster.
you say
Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified.
In your use of Heb. 15:16, this too falls short of the mark. It speaks of a correcting, but if God meant for it to be used as the suffering which brings about sanctification, then He (God) would have had Paul write it that way.
Therefore, Scripture is the only thing needed, totally contradicting this doctrine.
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, (BEING SANCTIFIED) by the Holy Ghost.
Heb 10:10
By the which will we (ARE SANCTIFIED) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath (PERFECTED) for ever them that (ARE SANCTIFIED).
Jud 1:1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that (ARE SANCTIFIED) by God the Father, and (PRESERVED) in Jesus Christ, and called:
Having read these scriptures, You can clearly see, “A person “IS SANCTIFIED” upon conversion.
Where within these verses, do you see any hint of an ongoing process of Sanctification?
you say
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life.
answer
You are perfectly correct, it does make sense, because there is a fundamental flaw in human nature, this flaw requires man to earn their Salvation, he believes it must be merited, mankind cannot grasp the love of God, or depth to which this “GIFT” of God goes.
Joh 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Eph 2:8,9
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
1Co 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
you say
After all, if a guilty soul is merely “covered,” if its sinful state still exists
answer
You have finally come to the point, that defines this whole discussion.
Not understanding the lengths to which God has gone to secure the souls of mankind, through Salvation, ultimately leads to this destination, in the discussion.
Through Salvation, a guilty soul is “NEVER” merely covered, it is “FORGIVEN”.
If the sinful state of man exists, then Salvation has not taken place, that is the purpose of Salvation. That is what separates, “The Sheep, from The Goats”.
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven, a dirty soul isn’t fit for heaven.
Mankind has their opportunity to accept the Salvation offered, or to reject it. Once that has been decided in a mans heart, there is no further need for any purification form any lingering impurities.
you say
Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement
answer
Again your correct, I already gave you my views on Sanctification taking place upon Salvation.
Act 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
May God Bless you, and lead you into all truth
JIM
Hello Brother Jim :o)
Amen, but I’m afraid I do not agree with your fallible interpretation, in fact the scriptures you quote support the Catholic position.
I note that you are quoting from the King James version.
“Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
But I wish to point out to the other readers that the New King James version was updated for modern language in 1975 and in fact just about any other Bible you care to pick up NIV, New American Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, Contemporary English Version, New International Readers Verion etc ALL translate this passage as “1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Notice that? Heavens, plural not singular. I don’t speak Ye Olde English so I read modern language Bibles (you might see my point when we start quoting KJV below). Jim may not “trust”, sorry Jim for putting words in your mouth, feel free to replace them with your own, modern translations, but I find it difficult to see how our modern translations could all be wrong about the same thing. I’ll let the reader decide for themselves if the KJV (1604-1611) is an unblemished or the only true translation of the Bible which modern language Bibles (even the updated KJV) fail to be.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
As I have already stated the purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (KJV Rev. 21:27) “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life” and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
Two Judgments
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that ” And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” (KJV Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in KJV Matthew 25:31-32: “31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:”
It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: (KJV Luke 12:59)”I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.” How does this scripture fit your Heaven or Hell only philosophy?
Why No Protests?
Whenever a date is set for the “invention” of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?
A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?
They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that “true believers” in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.
It is no wonder that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. But actually, it speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (KJV 1 Pet. 3:19) ” By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;” These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell, they were in PRISON. So I ask again how does this scripture fit your Heaven or Hell only philosophy?
Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is NOT contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It PROVES there can be more than just heaven and hell.
“Purgatory Not in Scripture”
“The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture.” This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word.
Christ refers to the sinner who “32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (KJV Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (KJV 1 Cor 3:15) “15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” So yet again I ask you how does this scripture fit your Heaven or Hell only philosophy?
Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
Then, of course, if the King James version had allowed it 2 Macc. 12:43–45 there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin”. Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.
Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was NOT the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
Punishment for sin after forgiveness – No Contradiction?
Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. Take a minute to think about this, a Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because “Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
“(KJV Heb. 12:11) or in the modern KJV “11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”
Nothing Unclean
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely “covered,” if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 (KJV) states that we must strive “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord”
I hope that helps Brother and let me know if you would like to swap email addresses as I have enjoyed the discourse.
God bless and thank you.
Hi Andrews
you say
“So in summary, there is punishment for Sin even after forgiveness. We have to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is because nothing unclean gets into heaven.”
In your reading the Bible you must have missed this teaching, doesn’t this scripture fill the requirement of being perfect?
*******
Heb 10:14-18
14.) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
*******
15.) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16.) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
******
17.) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
******
18.) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
So the concept of “punishment for sin after forgiveness”, not only is a false doctrine, it can’t even be backed up by scripture. It does in actuality deny, and contradict the sacrifice made by Christ, and accepted by God, on our behalf.
******
These verses above say, that we “Have been Perfected” when we receive Christ.
They then go on to say, He (GOD) will remember our sins “NO MORE.”
You have to understand the concept, “The act of forgiveness”, “Is the act of forgetting.”
How then does, or can God punish us for something He has already forgotten?
That would be an, act of an unjust God, a God that would punish for something He Himself, has already forgiven.
You seem to also be unaware of the fact, God dealt with the people of the Old Testament differently, than He has dealt with people for the last 2,000 yrs.
God is no longer a “GOD of RETRIBUTION”, yes you will pay for all eternity for your sins, “IF” you have not asked for forgiveness, and received Salvation from God, through the sacrifice of Jesus. But there is only one Salvation for each person.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of (Sins that Are Past), through the forbearance of God;
1Jn 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Jesus, which is our propitiation for sin, has paid the debt for our sin.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
1Jn 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus
Christ his Son (Cleaneth) us from all sin.
******
If the following is what you believe, then it sounds a lot more like people that are trying to earn their own way into Heaven, by paying a debt, that Jesus has already paid.
Whoever wrote this statement, does not understand the completed work of Christ on the cross, that a Man that is Righteous in the sight of God, is Perfect. That is the only process that makes us perfect.
We stand in the Righteousness of Christ, which is His Perfect Righteousness. There is nothing we can do, to add to, or detract from that Righteousness.
Heaven is the place of reward, victory.
Hell is the place, of punishment.
Earth is the “Only Place”, where “WE” can receive Salvation, where we “ARE FORGIVEN” our sins, or “Suffer Loss”.
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
your post
“There is some way or process by which rightous men are made perfect and there is place besides Heaven or Hell where you can suffer loss, yet be saved, but only as through fire and where you can be forgiven Sin from a previous age, and where you will not get out until you have paid your entire debt. Sounds a lot like what Catholics call purgatory.”
The lack of understanding the full gift of Salvation, that we are given in this gift by God, Sanctification, Justification, Redemption, will lead to the belief, that there needs to be more accomplished, because Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient for our Salvation. The only claim that can be put forward that Purgatory truly does exist, is the inference found in 2 Sam 12.
While there are verses found from Genesis to Revelation speaking of Heaven, and Hell.
When we look at Genesis, and Revelation we find.
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (No mention of a Purgatory.)
Rev 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Then in Psalms, and Revelation.
Psa 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Doesn’t it seem obvious by it’s absence that Purgatory not being mentioned in the Bible therefore does not exist, but is in actuality an invention of man, for man, by man to give himself a second chance of attaining that which he has failed to attain in his lifetime?
A trick, or gimmick if you will, by the Church, that never offered Salvation to the people, as the Salvation, you yourself have stated you now have attained, being Born Again, this being done in order to give people a false sense of hope, giving to them the feeling, that all men would end up in Heaven.
There will only be 2 types of people “The Righteous, and The Wicked” there is no middle ground with God.
This is what the Angel said to the Church of the Laodiceans, but it is also depiction of what God expects from mankind.
Rev 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
God Bless this journey
JIM
Thank you for your comments your “intrusion” is most welcome :o)
I would be happy to progress on a Bible alone (Sola Scriptura) basis if that aids the discussion? We could work from the NIV (New International Version) or another well known translation of Jim’s choice.
I hope I have shown the early church writings support the scripture, not in itself show a point of view without proper scriptural support. I am happy for my response to be stripped of early Church writings and let it stand for itself.
However, I invite those Bible alone readers to grab their Bibles in their hand and I ask you, what is the pillar and foundation of the truth?
A. The Bible?
(NIV) 1 Timothy 3:15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
So Holy Scripture testifies that the Church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
But what does a pillar do? It holds things up, so the Bible tells us that the Church is upholding the Truth. Sola Scriptura?
If the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, the upholder of the Truth, then aren’t we right to listen to the Church in faith and morals? Sola Scriptura?
Then why do some believe that the Bible alone is really the sole rule of faith for Christians? Where in the Bible does it say that? After all, if a person believes in the Bible alone as the sole rule of faith for Christians, then shouldn’t the Bible say that?
But since it has been raised 2 Timothy 3 16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Amen! Catholics believe this 100%. Please note two things about this passage though.
1) It states Scripture is useful, it doesn’t say Scripture is all sufficient. It does not say all we need to know about our faith is in the Bible.
2) Nowhere do we see the word “alone”, as in Bible or Scripture “alone”. What this passage is saying, and ALL this passage is saying, is that all of scripture is inspired and useful so that we might be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
We need to know scripture, we need to ponder it, and we need to soak in it, meditate on it, pray and be able to share it. But, this passage still doesn’t say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith for Christians.
Protestant/Catholics we are all Christians and God willing, you, me and all our families will find our way to that narrow gate.
I hope this helps and may God bless our journey.
Hi there JesseeD.
There is never an intrusion, when people are talking about the things of God.
Mat 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Your point is well taken, and as you say I am (Sola Scriptura) as far as the Authority of what the Bible itself teaches. I use the King James, and a Greek Interlinear Bible. On the grounds, any other writings about what the Bible teaches, would all fall under the category of Commentary. These other writings, such as Thomas Aquinas, and Justin Martyr. These are interpretations of what the Bible says, and as you have said do not have the same significance as those that constitute the Canon of Scripture. While they can be used to shed some light upon difficult understandings, where there may be an impasse, then they have some merit, as far as shedding such light, but not to be taken, or understood to have the same Authority as Holy Scripture.
These teachings written in the Bible were by men, as the Holy Spirit revealed the knowledge to them.
Eph 3:4,5
4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
What Paul speaks in Eph. about the Apostles, is the same thing Peter speaks in 2 Pet. about the Prophets of the Old Testiment.
2Pe 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Your viewpoint is welcomed, where being “outside the box” has it’s advantages, sometimes others may not see, they are in a forest:>)
Your Brother in Christ
JIM
Forgive me for the intrusion, this is a really neat discussion. I just wanted to say that I think before you can even establish something such as “born again” and “salvation” you need to get things set as to what is Scripture and what is not Scripture, or more specifically, what is “given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, (and) for instruction of righteousness.”
From an outside perspective, this is what I am seeing: Andrews brings not only Scripture to his defense, but all sort of extra-Biblical writings and authors. The problem is this: Jim is sola Scriptura (I assume), and Andrews accepts not only Scripture as inspired authority, but also early Christians and their writings, which are non-canonical. All of this means that while Jim concludes that Paul, Peter, James, Jesus, and all other writers of the Bible are inspired of God, Andrews can pull any random person that lived in that era, whether inspired of God or not, into the conversation to conform it (and the doctrine thereof) to whatever view he has or wants to present. (‘m not implying that you would go this far, but the door has at least begun to be opened for its possibility.)
To further draw the problem out, let me put it like this. If I were to teach about the deity of Jesus, and used every translation of the Bible out there, I can basically conform Scripture to my teaching. However, if you were to use one or two versions, you have to conform your teaching to what the Bible says on it.
You guys can run with this wherever you want, or ignore it altogether, I am just pointing something out from “outside the box.” Thanks guys!
Dear Brother Jim,
I shall do my best to answer your questions and thank you for the discourse:
Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).
When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism (I think that covers Q1). Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”
For an Evangelical, becoming “born again” often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be “born again.”
“If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!” says the preacher. So the gentleman makes “a decision for Christ” and at the altar call goes forward to be led in “the sinner’s prayer” by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—”born again.” Some may lay on hands and some may then speak in tongues.
Now, I have to admit I’m not really sure what your second question is, so I apologise if the following answer is not what you were asking, but I am happy to pick this question up again if you wouldn’t mind explaining it to me. I think the question is “do you baptise by immersion?” Assuming that’s the question, here’s my answer. In the Didache, which is one of the earliest, if not the earliest, non–scriptural Christian writings, it says this about Baptism: “The procedure for baptizing is as follows: after repeating all that has been said, immerse in running water ‘In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost’. If no running water is available, immerse in ordinary water…If neither is practicable, then pour water three times on the head ‘In the name of the Father…”
Again, this is not Scripture, but this is a window into the practices of the early Christians who learned directly from the Apostles and those appointed by the Apostles to leadership roles within the Church. They were baptizing folks by immersion and by pouring, or sprinkling.
Ezekiel 36:25–27, I will SPRINKLE clean water upon you and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you…and I will put My Spirit within you…” What do you think is being talked about here? Water…a new spirit…cleansed of your uncleannesses? Baptism…by sprinkling.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say one has to be immersed in order to be officially baptized. People will point to Jesus’ baptism accounts which say that He “came up out of the water,” and use that to claim He was immersed. However, if you read all four of the accounts of Jesus’ baptism side–by–side, you can make a very strong case that when it says, Jesus “came up out of the water,” it does not mean He came up from under the water (immersion), but rather that it means He came up out of the river onto the bank. If you had a child swimming in a pool and you called to them and they “came up out of the water,” what would that mean? That your child was underwater but is now above water, or that he had come out of the pool altogether? It would be the latter.
Onto question 3. Regeneration (being “born again”) is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.
The term “born again” may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated “born again” (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated “again,” but in the New Testament, it most often means “from above.” In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated “again” are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering.
Another term is “regeneration.” When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12), and becoming a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).
Regeneration in John 3
These different ways of talking about being “born again” describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being “born of water and the Spirit.” In Greek, this phrase is, literally, “born of water and Spirit,” indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than “born of water and of the Spirit,” as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.
In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).
The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).
After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), “Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22).
Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this:
In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61).
Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, “And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]” (Fragment 34).
In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians “receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]” (Letters 71[72]:1).
Augustine wrote, “From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ” (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]).
Augustine also taught, “It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam” (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
Regeneration in the New Testament
The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God “saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.”
Paul also said, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3–4).
This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, “In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (NIV).
The Effects of Baptism
Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.
In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” When Paul was converted, he was told, “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16).
Peter also said, “God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were “saved through water,” so for Christians, “[b]aptism . . . now saves you.” It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.
These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.
Protestants on Regeneration
Martin Luther wrote in his Short Catechism that baptism “works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal life to all who believe.” His recognition that the Bible teaches baptismal regeneration has been preserved by Lutherans and a few other Protestant denominations. Even some Baptists recognize that the biblical evidence demands the historic Christian teaching of baptismal regeneration. Notable individuals who recognized that Scripture teaches baptismal regeneration include Baptist theologians George R. Beasley-Murray and Dale Moody.
Nevertheless, many Protestants have abandoned this biblical teaching, substituting man-made theories on regeneration. There are two main views held by those who deny the scriptural teaching that one is born again through baptism: the “Evangelical” view, common among Baptists, and the “Calvinist” view, common among Presbyterians.
Evangelicals claim that one is born again at the first moment of faith in Christ. According to this theory, faith in Christ produces regeneration. The Calvinist position is the reverse: Regeneration precedes and produces faith in Christ. Calvinists (some of whom also call themselves Evangelicals) suppose that God “secretly” regenerates people, without their being aware of it, and this causes them to place their faith in Christ.
To defend these theories, Evangelicals and Calvinists attempt to explain away the many unambiguous verses in the Bible that plainly teach baptismal regeneration. One strategy is to say that the water in John 3:5 refers not to baptism but to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. The implication of this view is that Jesus would have been saying, “You must be born of amniotic fluid and the Spirit.” A check of the respected Protestant Greek lexicon, Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, fails to turn up any instances in ancient, Septuagint or New Testament Greek where “water” (Greek: hudor) referred to “amniotic fluid” (VIII:314–333).
Evangelicals and Calvinists try to deal with the other verses where new life is attributed to baptism either by ignoring them or by arguing that it is not actually water baptism that is being spoken of. The problem for them is that water is explicitly mentioned or implied in each of these verses.
In Acts 2:38, people are exhorted to take an action: “Be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ,” which does not refer to an internal baptism that is administered to people by themselves, but the external baptism administered to them by others.
We are told that at Paul’s conversion, “he rose and was baptized, and took food and was strengthened. For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus” (Acts 9:18–19). This was a water baptism. In Romans 6 and Colossians 2, Paul reminds his readers of their water baptisms, and he neither says nor implies anything about some sort of “invisible spiritual baptism.”
In 1 Peter 3, water is mentioned twice, paralleling baptism with the flood, where eight were “saved through water,” and noting that “baptism now saves you” by the power of Christ rather than by the physical action of water “removing . . . dirt from the body.”
The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever. So the answer to the question, “Are Catholics born again?” Yes. Since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics in turn ask Protestants, “Are you born again—the way the Bible understands that concept?” If the Evangelical has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again “the Bible way,” regardless of what he may think.
I think the above answers your Q4 and Q5.
Praise God and thank you again for the discourse Brother and may He bless you.
Hi Andrews1975
Before a dialog can be held on the subject of Purgatory, some other things would need to be resolved first.
I don’t believe in having a conversation, and attempt at understanding, (per chance believing also) by starting from the end.
1.) For the Catholic’s that would call themselves, Born Again, just what would that process entail?
2.) Upon Salvation for a Catholic, are they Baptized? (Immersed)?
3.) How would you define the Term Born Again, just what is it that makes one become Born Again?
4.) How old were you personally, when you finally came to the point of calling yourself Born Again?
5.) What was it that precipitated this understanding for you?
There are other questions, but those will do for now.
I ask these questions in order that we can be sure, we are on the same page of understanding, both using the same definitions for the words we would use.
Without this kind of understanding, we would never be able to come to the truth.
I say the truth, because you are making a claim that something (Purgatory) is a real place.
I disagree with your position.
There is a truth to your position, are you willing to accept the truth? I am.
We stand in two differing positions, two positions that are diametrically opposed, lets reason together, then through the leading of the Holy Ghost, come to the truth.
We are to come out of the darkness, unto His marvelous light.
JIM
Dear Brother and Sister in Christ.
In response to your comments on pergatory:
2 Samual 12 13-18 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die.” 15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.”
** Principle No.1: There is punishment for Sin even after one has received forgiveness.
When speaking of the New Jeresulem – Revelation 21-27: “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Matthew 5:48 “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
** Principle No.2: Nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of Sin will enter Heaven.
Hebrews 12 22:23 “But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect”
To reiterate, “righteous men made perfect.”
** Principle No.3: There is a way, a process, through which the spirits of righteous men are made perfect.
1 Corinthians 3 13:15 “his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
Where is this place where any man, after he dies, suffers loss as one escaping through the flames, but is still saved? Hell? Once you’re in Hell you don’t get out. Heaven? You don’t suffer loss in Heaven.
**Principle No.4
There is place other than Heaven or Hell
Matthew 12:32 “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”
Implies there is forgiveness in the age to come. Where can you go to be forgiven in the age to come? Heaven? You don’t need forgiveness. Hell? There is no forgiveness.
Matthew 18 32:35 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35″This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
To reiterate – paid all his debt. Where can you go that is like jail until you have paid your debt? Heaven, Hell?
So in summary, there is punishment for Sin even after forgiveness. We have to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is because nothing unclean gets into heaven. There is some way or process by which rightous men are made perfect and there is place besides Heaven or Hell where you can suffer loss, yet be saved, but only as through fire and where you can be forgiven Sin from a previous age, and where you will not get out until you have paid your entire debt. Sounds a lot like what Catholics call pergatory.
Praise God and blessing for the journey.
Fr. Gary Bean a cradle Baptist (Grandfather was a Baptist Deacon, Grandmother was the Church pianist) testifies as to why he became a Catholic Priest.
Download the free Mp3 at http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download and follow the link Baptist Minister Becomes Priest.
Praise God.
Hi again Daughter
When you say
“I am saying that no unclean/ sin can enter heaven so that would include those who are saved but are in sin at the time of death”
——
Question
Where can the scripture be found, that this belief comes from?
Blessings in Jesus name
JIM
I am saying that no unclean/ sin can enter heaven so that would include those who are saved but are in sin at the time of death and those who are not saved….
Hi Daughter
You have said
“there is no holding tank for the sinner who dies. He immediately enters hell.”
********
Question
Are you saying, if believer sins, and before he can ask forgiveness dies?
He too will immediately enter hell?
Or does your statement only apply to the unsaved?
+++++++++
Because you also said
“When we sin, we ask forgiveness of the sin and do not hang on to the sin. If we lack doing this then there is noway we can enter heaven.”
*******
In your saying “WE”, is that the Saved person we, or the Unsaved person we?
++++++
Don’t take my question as though I am defending the Hypothetical Place the Catholics call Purgatory.
I only ask for the purpose of (Doctrinal, and or Theological) clarification.
*******
JIM
You are well steeped into Catholic doctrine and what you have said does not nor will it ever cause me to embrace this church doctrines…
Again nowhere in Scripture does it say one word about purgatory. When we sin, we ask forgiveness of the sin and do not hang on to the sin. If we lack doing this then there is noway we can enter heaven. Your Scriptures are correct about heaven but there is no holding tank for the sinner who dies. He immediately enters hell. To those who are forgiven they immediately enter heaven to be absence from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord.
We should do well not to judge people…This is the reply from many who who are being deceived…We should all just ignore the deception, ignore what Scriptures say about the deception, just ignore whatever may be embraced and go about singing Kumbaya….
Dear Sister In Christ,
A response to your questions, from Scripture as you requested.
1) “Please show me where in Scripture does it mention purgatory????”
2 Samual 12 13-18 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die.” 15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.”
** Principle No.1: There is punishment for Sin even after one has received forgiveness.
When speaking of the New Jeresulem – Revelation 21-27: “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Matthew 5:48 “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
** Principle No.2: Nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of Sin will enter Heaven.
Hebrews 12 22:23 “But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect”
To reiterate, “righteous men made perfect.”
** Principle No.3: There is a way, a process, through which the spirits of righteous men are made perfect.
1 Corinthians 3 13:15 “his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
Where is this place where any man, after he dies, suffers loss as one escaping through the flames, but is still saved? Hell? Once you’re in Hell you don’t get out. Heaven? You don’t suffer loss in Heaven.
**Principle No.4
There is place other than Heaven or Hell
Matthew 12:32 “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”
Implies there is forgiveness in the age to come. Where can you go to be forgiven in the age to come? Heaven? You don’t need forgiveness. Hell? There is no forgiveness.
Matthew 18 32:35 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35″This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
To reiterate – paid all his debt. Where can you go that is like jail until you have paid your debt? Heaven, Hell?
So in summary, there is punishment for Sin even after forgiveness. We have to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is because nothing unclean gets into heaven. There is some way or process by which rightous men are made perfect and there is place besides Heaven or Hell where you can suffer loss, yet be saved, but only as through fire and where you can be forgiven Sin from a previous age, and where you will not get out until you have paid your entire debt. Sounds a lot like what Catholics call pergatory.
2) “Why does the RC think that a priest can forgive people???” and “Why would anyone who is RC go through a mortal when they have the chosen right to immediately go to God for forgiveness”
Because that is the way in which God set things up for us to receive His forgiveness. In James 5:16 “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” God through sacred scripture has requested that we confess our Sins to one another. Scripture does not say confess your Sins straight to God and only to God.
Matthew 9:6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins….” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” and the scripture then tells us that 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.” The authority was given to Men (plural).
John 20 20:21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”, how did the Father send Jesus? we’ve just read in Matthew 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority to forgive Sins. Jesus sent out his disciples, as the Father has sent Him, so what authority must Jesus be sending out His disciples with? The authority on earth to forgive Sins. But listen to the next two versus 21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Why would Jesus give the apostles the ability to forgive Sins if he was not expecting people to confess their Sins to them? and how could they forgive or retain Sins if noboby was confessing them? The bible tells us to confess our Sins to one another.
3) “Why does RC call a mortal man Holy Father (Pope)…Does this not counterdict the Bible when it states we should only call God Father???”
No one would deny a little boy or girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn’t forbidding this type of use of the word “father.”
In fact, to forbid it would rob the address “Father” of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God’s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood.
But in the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.
For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: “So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt” (Gen. 45:8).
Some might argue that this usage changed with the New Testament—that while it may have been permissible to call certain men “father” in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it’s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.
Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,” or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of “our father Isaac.”
There are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term “father” being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker.
Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, “But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ” (Matt. 23:8–10).
The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term “teacher,” in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth” (1 Tim. 2:7); “For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher” (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers” (1 Cor. 12:28); and “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as “teachers.”
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their gasping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell” (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to “the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers” who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.
As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.
4) “Concerning the rosary, these are repetitive prayers and counterdicts the Bible….”
The word rosary comes from Latin and means a garland of roses, the rose being one of the flowers used to symbolize the Virgin Mary.
First we must understand that they are meditations. When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. If they merely recite the prayers, whether vocally or silently, they’re missing the essence of the rosary. It isn’t just a recitation of prayers, but a meditation on the grace of God. Critics, not knowing about the meditation part, imagine the rosary must be boring, uselessly repetitious, meaningless, and their criticism carries weight if you reduce the rosary to a formula. Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is “His mercy endures forever.” Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God.
Christ himself used repetitious prayer but you don’t hear anyone accusing Him of contradicting the Bible Matthew 26 43″ When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.”
Lastly, have you ever said the Our Father more than once, have you requested the same thing in prayer more than once?
5) “Why would I want to pray to a dead person, that man calls a saint to interceed for me when I can access my Advocate (Jesus Christ) 24/7.. He (Jesus) has access to the Father not a dead person who might have done works here on earth but never repented of sin..”
There is an excellent and free MP3 download on the communion of saints and does a far better job than I could do here. If you’re interested follow the link to the talk about the communion of saints.
http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download
6)” I could continue on and on but will not since the RC deceives many with traditions and unBiblical teachings…”
We would do well not to judge people.
I hope that helps. Praise God and blessings for the journey.
Please show me where in Scripture does it mention purgatory????
Why does the Roman Catholic church think it can pray a dead person out of purgatory into heaven???
Why does the RC think that a priest can forgive people???My Bible states that God is the forgiver and that mortal man is a sinner???Why would I want a sinner (as I am also) another sinner to ask God to forgive me???
Why would anyone who is RC go through a mortal when they have the chosen right to immediately go to God for forgiveness, prayer requests etc..
Why does RC call a mortal man Holy Father (Pope)…Does this not counterdict the Bible when it states we should only call God Father???
Concerning the rosary, these are repetitive prayers and counterdicts the Bible….
Why would I want to pray to a dead person, that man calls a saint to interceed for me when I can access my Advocate (Jesus Christ) 24/7.. He (Jesus) has access to the Father not a dead person who might have done works here on earth but never repented of sin..
I could continue on and on but will not since the RC deceives many with traditions and unBiblical teachings…
Well Bro Andrews ,
Much of what modern day Protestants & Evangelicals believe
is based on the writings of Martin Luther and a few others
which in turn are based on (Saint) Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Their argument / beilef always is,”By faith alone ,…….”
James says , “Faith alone is dead ,……..”
Christians of other denominations find it easy to cite Scripture
and pick holes in Catholic beliefs and practices.
But the Evangelicals are generally , “here today , …..gone tomorrow”.
There is a huge emphasis on tithing and money.
You dont find that in the Catholic Church.
Despite being saved , I continue to remain in the Catholic Church
for multiple reasons , including the ones mentioned above ,…..
It is good that you brought this up.
Cheers
Vikki
“until I understood that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that who so ever believed on Him (Jesus) would not perish but have life everlasting.”
Amen, but is this statement in John 3:16 supposed to be taken by itself as the complete salvation story? This also goes for Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28; Romans 10 9:10; Acts 16 30:31 etc
When asked what good deed must I do to receive eternal life? Did Jesus answer with “No, no, you have it all wrong you don’t have to do any good deeds?” or did he say “Just believe in me and you will have eternal life?”
No, he replied Matthew 19:17 “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments” Faith alone?
He also said in Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of Heaven but he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven.” Faith alone?
The word ALONE is not contained in Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28; Romans 10 9:10; Acts 16 30:31, in fact the only time faith and alone are mentioned together is in James 2:24 “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”
All bible believing Christians should believe in faith and works. Are we walking in the works prepared in advance for us by our Father? Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Praise be to God.
“I have never met a born again catholic that did not leave the catholic church.”
You have now.
Praise be to God.
Did you test the spirit that said to you “I am the only Father that you ever needed.”
1 John 4:1-6 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”
Not everything spiritual is from God.
With regards to the Eucharist have a look at the following video on YouTube from a once aethist scientist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs
Praise be to God.
“the second commandment,where images are condemned,is taken out”
For those interested the Catechism actually shows you how it draws from Exodus and Deuteronomy to produce the Catechetical formula, leaving nothing out http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a3.htm#ten
The definition of graven images is a material effigy that is worshipped; “thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image”; “money was his god”. Catholics do not worship images; they use statues/pictures to remind them of their faith. Catholics are well aware that Jesus is raised and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Have you ever watched a film or TV program where Jesus is portrayed? Did you not understand that this actor wasn’t really Jesus?
God bless
Where was the Church founded by Jesus, upon Peter the rock if it was not the Catholic Church?
…and if the Catholic Church is “great whore,mystery babylon the great,the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth” does that mean that the gates of hell did indeed prevail against His church?
So in your view where was Christ’s church for the first 1500 years before the protestant reformation?
What Church after the reformation can trace its founding back to Peter, the rock?
…and which of the 30,000+ types of protestant churches, with different teachings are we to follow?
Aarons golden calf was worshipped as a God. Catholics use figures as an aid/reminder of their faith, they do not declare them as their God and worship them.
Through Mary salvation entered into the world:
Genesis 3:15
“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Where Eve said yes to Satan, Mary said yes to God.
To understand the Catholics prayers you must first understand the communion of saints in Heaven. See http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download and follow the link to the free download on The Communion of Saints.
God bless.
Hi Guys…….
Its better we all Christians preach the Gospel of Jesus to those who have never heard of Jesus…..Weak fights against themselfs… be martyr for Christ……There are Billions yet who do not know who Christ is……. Leave judgement to Christ….Do not Judge or else you will be Judged!!!!
Cheers !!!
You who call Catholicism a cult know nothing of the very early church. Much of it is the same. Greek Orthodox is closer, but still, very simmilar.
I am sorry for your plight, that you blindly chose to be a priest when it was clearly not your calling. However, just because you did what your family probably expected you to do does not mean it is the whole Catholic Church’s fault. Grow up and accept the fact that you blindly fallowed something you know nothing about.
DIG DEEPER. You may have become a priest doctrinally but you have not found what so many lay people know.
I was raised in a Catholic home. Sin was all around us as children growing up but the rosary was said faithfully and the only time we missed mass was if we were dead. Fear I believe is the biggest reason why saved Catholics stay in their church. Fear and a lack of faith and trust in God and His Word. I grew up with the understanding that the God I knew was a punishing God and He was angry at me because I was a sinner. I could not go to God for that very reason. I was so filthy with sin that God could not stand me. I needed a mediator. In most cases Mary was my mediatrix according to Catholic doctrine. It wasn’t until I understood that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that who so ever believed on Him (Jesus) would not perish but have life everlasting. When I began to read the word of God I noticed that the doctrines and traditions of the church did not line up with what God said. I was frightened because I had been told that the devil will try to sway us from our Catholic faith. I prayed to God to reveal His truth to me. He did. God’s word set me free. He said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. The chains of bondage to fear literally fell off me. I felt so free in Christ. No longer did I have to worry if I was doing enough, or being good enough or making sure I went to enough masses and said enough rosary’s. I knew that because of Calvary and what Jesus went through for me that when I asked my Heavenly Father to forgive me of sin in my life and accepted the provision of pardon He offered me through His Son I was forgiven, born again, and saved and God my Father loved me. Not because of me but because of His Son who lives in me. I left the Roman Catholic system. Found a bible believing church (believe it or not they are getting harder and harder to find now days). He can do the same for you. Just ask Him. He’ll change you from the inside out. Trust God not a system. They say religion is man’s way to God. Jesus is God’s way. There’s a big difference in the two.
greetings, in the name of my lord jesus christ.if god would not accept aarons golden calf as a symbol of his glory,why should he accept images and statues in the churches today.israels leader moses was at the top of mount sinai.god said to,moses, i am the lord thy god,which have brought three out of the land of egypt,out of the house of bondage.thou shalt not have no other gods before me.thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…exodus 20:2-4.at the very same time moses was receiving the laws of god,the children of isreal were committing a heinous act of idolatry.the molten calf,made from gold.these be thy gods,o isreal,which brought thee up out of the land of egypt.exodus 32:1-4.the queen of heaven-roman catholic idolatery, the roman catholic church has elevated mary to the place of near equality with jesus christ.marys name is used in their prayer more often than the name of,jesus christ.one of their prayers is,”jesus,mary,and joseph,have mercy on me,”and another,”jesus,mary,and joseph,receive me now and in the hour of my death.”placing humanity alongside of deity,making the creature equal to the creator, this is idolatry.i could go on and on,but do you get the point.protestant idolatry,is not much better.they have pictures of men,on there church walls.they are called pictures of the,founder,men who founded there church.god hates idolatry,it does not matter which church its in.”if any man love the world,the love of the father is not in him”1 john 2:15.fill free to comment,stevehenry.
Mary the mother of Jesus has made know that her Immaculate Heart will triumph.
Praise God that all these infiltrators in the Catholic Church are starting to come out , Pope Paul VI had said that the smoke of Satan has entered the Church and I also read of the journal of a priest who died in an accident in France (if I am not mistaken) and his brief case contain information of communist agent infiltrating the Church to try and destroy it.
I believe that what the Church is going through is a cleansing of the filth of Satan that has entered into the church.
Jesus has said, “my Church will not be destroyed” and I believe.
Praise the Lord for all the dirt being unearth and they will all be cleased from the church.
hi,satan,is a master counterfeiter.his teachings is nothing more or less than a counterfeit of the true gospel,produced by satan,the great master counterfeiter of all times.there is only”one gospel”not a hundred gospels.there is only one way to be”born again”not a hundred ways to be born again.there is only one way into the kingdom of god,not a hundred ways into the kingdom of god.galatians 1:8 but though we,or an angel from heaven,preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,let him be accursed.galatians 1:9 as we said before,so say i now again,if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received,let him be accursed.there are many false religions,in this world,the great ethnic religions,were there is no redemption and they worship strange gods.roman catholic idolatry,in the church of st.mary in grace just a few yards from the vatican in rome can be read these words,”let us come boldy to the throne of virgin mary that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need”.this is certainly idolatry.come lord jesus,i pray.thanks stevehenry
this is a responce to jim,who said i have nothing but disdain for the catholic church.read the book”unholy orders”by michael harris,and you will see what i mean.lets tear the shroud from the antichrist,and have a look for our selves.god bless you,jim.thanks stevehenry
i like to say to,lookinforacity.you donot like the way i speak of the,great whore,mystery babylon the great,the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.everything i say is,ture.you cant burn me to the stake,this is not the dark ages.you read the book”unholy orders”by michael harris,you will see for yourself what i mean.i no the gospel i preach,will not win me any popularity contest,because the devil hates the,truth.the truth is,stranger then fiction.i say to you prove me,wrong.i will up left the name thats above every name,thats the name of my lord jesus christ.2 john 10 says if there come any unto you,and bring not this doctrine,receive him not into your house,neither bid him god speed.many christians were imprisoned and burned at the stake because they dared to speak out againt the false teachings and totalitarianism of the catholic church during the dark ages.this is a brand new day,thank-you jesus.feel free to comment on what i just said.stevehenry
Hi stevehenery
You have made four posts to this site, so far all of them have had the same general thrust to them, ie your disdain for the Catholic Church. Is there some secret motive for your posts? Have you nothing for
the Praise of God? There has only been anger thus far. Not a healthy place for a Christian to dwell in,
these kinds of feelings usually come from an unwillingness, or inability to forgive.
JIM
john 10:33 “for a good work we stone thee not:but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man,makest thyself god”.luke5:21 the pharisees accused jesus of blasphemy when he claimed the right to forgive sins.they said,”who is this which speaketh blasphemies?who can forgive sins,but god alone?”this is how blasphemy is defined in gods word.now,what is the blasphemy of the romam church.the papacy claim the power to forgive sin in the confession.the roman church fits johns description of blasphemy by claiming the holiness and revernce of the pope.”thou art the shepherd,thou art the physician,thou art the governor,thou art the husdandman,finally,thou art another god on earth,”was the status attributed to pope julius 11 at the fifth lateran council in 1512.john 10:1 verily,verily,i say unto you,he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold,but climbrth up some other way,the same is a thief and a robber.jesus christ is that ,door.enter in threw jesus christ,confess your sin to him,and you will be saved.there is no other way,but threw my lord and saviour,jesus christ. the arm of flesh will fill you.thanks stevehenry
Hi Henry-
This is what happens when we invest power or consideration in men. Someone on this site recently phrased a question about what authority protestants or the reformist movement had to breakaway from Rome. I declined to engage by leading of the Holy Spirit.
Praise God continually that He has delivered to you- his Word so that you may thrive and grow on all its parts.
Just remember when you witness to Catholics or any such group- your passion is to bring the person into the the knowledge and power of the Lord Jesus. Focus on presenting Jesus and sharing your personal testimony of what Christ has done for you.
For salvation arises out of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, in the heart of the man. No argument is able to do this- only the Word of God and the working of the Holy Spirit.
Always give a reason to those who ask. But if you wish to be powerfully used- base that reason on the importance of turning away from sin, lifestyle, rebellion and taking hold of Jesus in faith; human arguments always fall flat- they are arrows cast without the bow being drawn.
———————
May the Lord bless you- and enable you to witness to His glory and reap the ripe corn fields.
Peer.
in the province i live in priests raped young boys.a friend of minds,fourteen year old dauther got raped,by a roman priest.the antichrist,is alive and well in the roman church.not only in the roman church,there are other churchs hiding those sick,people.come out from among those churchs,confess jesus christ as lord of your life.god bless stevehenry
if you compare the ten commandments in a catholic catechism,with those in your bible,you will see a big differense.in the bible they are the same as god gave them on mount sinai.in the catholic catechism,the second commandment,where images are condemned,is taken out.the tenth commandment is divided into two commandments,so that they continue to have ten commandments,after the second commandment has been deleted.see for yourself.churches have changed the lords prayer,and changed the ten commandments.this is the work of the,antichrist.fill free to comment,stevehenry.
Speaking as one who also comes out of a religious works-oriented background, I can relate to how difficult it is to renew your mind in grace and faith. Even after becoming a Christian, I believed I had to strive to “do” things to please God. This has been a very difficult mindset to overcome. Focusing on the teachings of the apostle Paul has helped me. He warned the church of Galatia in very strict terms to stop trying to earn points with God. He also warned the Corinthian church about false teachers:
“For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive A DIFFERENT SPIRIT which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.” – 2 Cor 11:4
I realized that what we believe determines whether we receive the HOLY spirit or a DIFFERENT spirit. Wow. I used to think I had to keep a morning ritual prayer time with God, whether I felt like it or not. God convicted me that I should pray when He led me to pray. In fact, everything we do for the kingdom should come not from striving by the flesh and wrong motivations, but from His Holy Spirit controlling our will, mind and emotions. Even overcoming sins is done by prayer and asking Him to give us right desires.
I agree with you. The Catholic Church’s origins coming through paganism stand out loud and clear. Bad root, bad fruit. Warning – a not too popular statement coming up …..
If you see this, then you will also see the protestant and evangelical churched are in need of reform as well.
Read online “The Two Babylons” or download the pdf files here – http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/
To purchase the book…. http://www.amazon.com/Two-Babylons-Papal-Worship-Proved/dp/0872133303
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
As horrific as it is for most of us to contemplate the dreadful abuse which has occurred in Catholic Institutions, it should be remembered that it could never possibly be any other way. Any time humans seek to fulfill God’s requirements without His power, there will eventually be nothing but corruption and the vilest debasing acts. It is a mirror also of the roots of Catholicism which is paganism and ancient sun worship. These ancient religions also had their monasteries for their priesthood, and buildings where the ‘vestal virgins’ lived, whereas the bible never enjoins such practices on Christians. As Solomon said, “There is nothing new under the sun.”
For a more indepth autobiography (if you really feel you must understand more about the sad legacy of Catholicism) you could read the book “Fifty Years in the Church of Rome” by Charles Chiniquy (see link below). Because the Catholic Church dominated the world for hundreds of years, it is difficult to find records of the crimes committed by it during it’s reign. The reports in today’s media of abuse are not a modern phenomenon – it has been happening for centuries.
http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0180.asp
If you have been a victim of such abuse, understand that the Lord did not abandon you. Unlike the Catholic system, He never forces anyone to do the right thing, and the freedom that allowed you to be abused was a gift that your perpetrator abused. He/She will answer for that one day. The pain/bitterness/shame you have been left with is a terrible burden, but if you seek the Lord to lift it from You, He will lead you to freedom and peace in Jesus. And just as Richard needed the guidance of godly Christians to be set free from the impact of Catholicism and his life experiences, so you too may need the support and ministry of others. Ask the Lord to lead you, and make it obvious who to turn to for help and Christian support as you seek to follow His word.
Check this out.
I am ashamed of it.
What was “His Holiness” the Pope doing ?
Today , are we sure it is not happening in some other part of the world ?
Dig out the secrets annals of the Catholic Church and put them on the net.
Much of our western civilisation and Christendom is hell itself.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090521/ap_on_re_eu/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse
Thousands beaten, raped in Irish reform schools.
DUBLIN – After a nine-year investigation, a commission published a damning report Wednesday on decades of rapes, humiliation and beatings at Catholic Church-run reform schools for Ireland’s castaway children.
The 2,600-page report painted the most detailed and damning portrait yet of church-administered abuse in a country grown weary of revelations about child molestation by priests.
The investigation of the tax-supported schools uncovered previously secret Vatican records that demonstrated church knowledge of pedophiles in their ranks all the way back to the 1930s.
Wednesday’s five-volume report on the probe — which was resisted by Catholic religious orders — concluded that church officials shielded their orders’ pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy.
“A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys. Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from,” Ireland’s Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse concluded.
Victims of the abuse, who are now in their 50s to 80s, lobbied long and hard for an official investigation. They say that for all its incredible detail, the report doesn’t nail down what really matters — the names of their abusers.
“I do genuinely believe that it would have been a further step towards our healing if our abusers had been named and shamed,” said Christine Buckley, 62, who spent the first 18 years of her life in a Dublin orphanage where children were forced to manufacture rosaries — and were humiliated, beaten and raped whether they achieved their quota or not.
The Catholic religious orders that ran more than 50 workhouse-style reform schools from the late 19th century until the mid-1990s offered public words of apology, shame and regret Wednesday. But when questioned, their leaders indicated they would continue to protect the identities of clergy accused of abuse — men and women who were never reported to police, and were instead permitted to change jobs and keep harming children.
The Christian Brothers, which ran several boys’ institutions deemed to have harbored serial child molesters and sadists on their staff, insisted it had cooperated fully with the probe. The order successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.
The Christian Brothers’ leader in Ireland, Brother Kevin Mullan, said the organization had been right to keep names secret because “perhaps we had doubts about some of the allegations.”
“But on the other hand, I’d have to say that at this stage, we have no interest in protecting people who were perpetrators of abuse,” Mullan said, vowing to “cooperate fully with any investigation or any civil authority seeking to explore those matters.”
Buckley, who said she was abused at an orphanage run by the Sisters of Mercy, which ran several refuges for girls where the report documented chronic brutality, said the religious orders for years branded the victims as money-seeking liars — and were incapable of admitting their guilt today.
She criticized Mullan for suggesting that “today, having read the report, he doesn’t mind if the abusers are named and shamed. Isn’t that a little bit late for us?”
The report found that molestation and rape were “endemic” in boys’ facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.
“In some schools a high level of ritualized beating was routine. … Girls were struck with implements designed to maximize pain and were struck on all parts of the body,” the report said. “Personal and family denigration was widespread.”
Ireland’s myriad religious orders, much like their mother church, have been devastated by 15 years of scandals involving past cover-ups of abusers in their ranks.
The Christian Brothers have withdrawn from running several schools that still bear their name and the order has had few recruits in Ireland in the past two decades. Other orders are down to a handful of members, and their bases are closer to nursing homes than active missions.
“Most of these orders will literally die out in Ireland within the next generation or so,” said Michael Kelly, editor of the Irish Catholic newspaper in Dublin. “Many of them are already in wind-up mode. They lack the confidence even to seek new vocations (recruits), due to the stigma associated with their members’ shocking, scandalous behavior.”
The Irish government, which in 1999 apologized for its role in permitting decades of abuse and established the commission to nail down the full truth of the matter, has tried to use money to bring closure to the victims.
A government-appointed panel has paid 12,000 survivors of the schools, orphanages and other church-run residences an average of $90,000 each — on condition they surrender their right to sue either the church or state. About 2,000 more claims are pending. Irish Catholic leaders cut a controversial deal with the government in 2001 that capped the church’s contribution at $175 million — a fraction of the final cost.
Some victims emphasized, even as they began thumbing through the report, that nothing — not even criminal convictions of their long-ago tormentors — will ever put right their psychological wounds and make their nightmares go away.
Tom Sweeney, who spent five years in two Christian Brothers-run institutions where he was placed for truancy, says he suffered sexual abuse and beatings. He also has bitter memories about more everyday humiliations — such as being forced to wrap his urine-stained sheets around his neck and parade in front of other children when he’d wet his bed.
“It’s something you’ll never forget, the way you lived in these industrial schools,” he said.
God is so gracious.
The testimony is wonderful and I thank God for his mercies towards Richard and showing him the way. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the life. Let us keep praying for our brothers and sisters in the Catholic church to get to know the real Christ of the Bible and come to have a personal relationship with him through accepting him as Lord and Saviour.
This is by no means a condemnation to Catholics because we are all sinners and none is righteous before God. Praise be to God!
Dear Richard,
May I ask , when you were a priest, did you keep an hour a day with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament ?.
You should read the book by Sr. Briege McKenna “Miracles do hamppen”.
regards,
joechia
Dominic and Marie,
There are many historical facts about the Catholic Church that are disturbing. For an in depth look at some of the ancient rites that are in Catholic AND Protestant AND Evangelical AND Charismatic churches today, I HIGHLY recommend reading “The Two Babylons” by Alexander Hisslop. Google it and order it. It is an extensive research into the origins of the worlds religions dating back to the flood. Many footnotes and historical references are given.
The good news is that where two or more are gathered together in my name, I am there! God has a place for you. You are now in “the Unknown Zone” and it is extremely UNcomfortable. But you need to pass through it to find the promised place of rest. Do not fear, nor feel abandoned. God is with you. I was born into a Catholic family who came out of it when certain things came to light.
The Lord does great miracles today. You can read what He has done for my wife and I at http://www.perfectinglove.com/ourstory. Sorry I did not see your note sooner.
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
Dominic and Marie,
Before you make your final decision , I would suggest that you read the book by Sister Briege McKenna “Miracles do happen”.
Regards,
Joe Chia
Dear Richard
Thank you so much for your very interesting and helpful witness. Both my wife and I are born again since about June last year, but we have been brought up in the Catholic church and for years we wanted to leave but stayed because of the Holy Eucharist. Also Helene’s dad said that it was apostasy to leave the church and that Catholics could not leave. So we were scared of hurting Jesus. We read the Bible every day and we live in France where the Mass is dead everywhere as the congregation seem to be “wailing” in church instead of singing joyfully. We don’t agree with a lot of the doctrines. We haven’t been to Mass for one month and instead have been to Christian worship of all denominations. The problem that we have in making a break from the Catholic church straightaway is that we introduced the Divine Mercy prayer group which takes place once a month. It focusses on the Lord’s Mercy and we have also tried to do a teaching to help people have a better relationship with Jesus. We have begun to let someone else lead the prayer group, therefore we feel that we will be able to leave completely once other people start taking over the prayer group. We have a great love for Jesus and He is at the centre of our lives and nobody else and not the church.
Please can you help us and explain something important. Yesterday we went for worship and our friends told us that on the internet they had discovered that St. Peter wasn’t the first pope that it was about 300 years later and that at the time of Constantine there was a goddess called Isis who gave people the eucharist and that the eucharist we have in church has a star with Isis written on it. We can’t remember if that is the case. We were very upset as as we believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Please tell us whether it is true or not.
The other problem that we have is that we don’t seem to fit into any church anymore. In France whether it is catholic or protestant or evangelical they all seem so sober and dull. Fortunately we have a fellowship group with other English people on Sundays. We are finding it really hard and please pray for us.
Best wishes from
Dominic and Marie-Helene Bradshaw
I can only give glory to God for your testimony! I applaud you for your courage to come out of that system, in obedience to the Lord’s command.
I pray that your example will serve as encouragement for others to follow you in walking the narrow path after leaving the broad path that leads to destruction!
I too was raised Catholic. Right now I am studying and searching the Bible with a friend. She’s taught me, and I’ve taught her, and we are having a very interesting time of it.
In our searching I have had to explain why I’m not a Catholic now. And why my family is not happy with me.
Your testimony is somewhat similar to mine. I was in the Charismatic Renewal. Babies on each arm and wondering how to teach them about God.
I loved going to Prayer Meetings more than Church. I learned things I never knew before. One day, I read that we could be adopted children of God! That was the day God first talked to me – and yes – He can and did talk to me. He said, “I am the only Father that you ever needed.”
It took a long time though, and hurt a lot, before I decided I could not raise my children in the church. Espcially after I experienced God’s forgiveness firsthand, without the aid of a Priest. I couldn’t tell my children that Priest is our intercessor. Jesus said we can come to the Father through Him.
So, I quit. Later my husband quit.
A new Priest came to town and I agreed to go to a seminar for new converts he was holding, on the condition that he picked me up and afterwards I could have the time I needed to ask questions or vent. Each week he went over a Sacrament, and we disagreed on all of them except the Eucharist. There’s the crunch. But I couldn’t agree with everything else so it wasn’t right for me to stay. (It was a process of 16 years).el
The more I learn, the more I’m glad I made that choice.
I know, Richard, that you had an even harder time than I did.
And I know that the Priest I talked to had to have a hard time after our talks. I also know that my family can’t understand why I quit.
But, I’M FREE! in Christ Jesus!
The way to life is all about truth… My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said” I am the way,the truth, and the life.
I have never met a born again catholic that did not leave the catholic church.
Richard now understands the Truth and is teaching it.. I pray he is able to reach other cathloics with his message.
It would be great to see a post from catholics who have been born again and why they stay in the catholic church.. Once you are born of the Spirit the spirit of truth lives in your heart so why is there so much comprimising of it???
WOW
How can people be so blind??? Pick up a Bible and read what Jesus Christ has said. “Narrow is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it…
If the Pope is the Head and the way and has many followers it makes me wonder where it is leading…… Richard Bennett seems to be on the right road…
Hey Margaret ,
If the Pope were Christ’s true representative on earth , why did he say something against the muslims and then issue an apology
facing Mecca ?
Come on , smell the coffee.
The Pope is as human as you or me.
If he were Christ’s true representative , he would have been
more guarded about his words , ….or he would not apologised a few days after his goof-up.
In any case , he did not say anything about loving your enemies , …..the way Jesus would have.
🙂
Wake up , Margaret.
Dont believe all what Rome tom-toms.
I’m Catholic too.
Vikki
Jesus gave the keys of Heaven and responsibility of the creating his Church to St Peter as the first Pope. The Pope is the Head of the Church.
Jesus sent His apostles out into the world to set up his Church and to administer his Sacraments. The most practical way to do this is within a church where a congregation can gather together as a family to celebrate the Mass and to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus as jesus told them to do at the Last Supper. The church, statues, flowers, outside trimmings are just a mark of respect for the spiritual celebration.
If the Catholic Church is not the way for Richard Bennett that is his choice. The Catholic Church with the Pope as the Head is the Way for millions of others.
Dear Brother Richard Bennett,
May God Bless you!I still remember you as a Catholic priest who had a most profound influence on my life and on the lives of my family.I would say that you helped me to become a Catholic priest by your wonderful outreach and sterling qualities. I have had no regrets and I still remember you with fondness.Your struggles and your eventual decision I note with sympathy.I hope you can find it in your heart to remember me with kindness and still pray for me.
Fr. Wilfred John,
Catholic priest.
Trinidad and Tobago.
all praise, honor and glory to the Lord Jesus Christ! for His wonderful saving power to deliver from many things, including dead religion and man made church traditions. He had and has a wonderful plan for you, to be a witness and salt and light to those who are still stuck in religion. Your testimony is wonderful, may the Blessed Holy Spirit continue to use your witness and life to point people to His marvelous saving power to deliver and save. The Lord continue to bless you mightily.
This is a wonderful testimony.May God use you to win souls for Him.
Paula,
Thanks for your heart for catholics. The problem with them is, they are brainwashed to believe that they are right and ther rest are wrong. The only thing is to reason with what they believe using the bible and how they fall short IF THEY ARE TO GO TO HEAVEN BY WORKS. Get them through Ten Commandment and reason with them if they have ever broken one! Only that one will require payment! And then they will see why Jesus died for us. Do this by prayer knowing that the god of this world have blinded them that they will not see the light of the Gospel
The two Books by Mark Cahill are my favorite on the field:
1. One heart beat away
2. One thing you can’t do in heaven
God bless you and enable you to effectively win them for Jesus!
Stephen
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Tit 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sober
Try talking to them about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Show them about the promise of the Father, in the Scriptures. Tell them your experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Many sincere Catholics will hunger for such an experience, once they hear about it. In the process of asking for the Holy Spirit, he or she will get saved.
i have many family members, how do you open the door to witness to catholics, i try testamonies but its like talking to a brick wall
This really is lovely to hear, and helpful to us all to be reminded of how Christ so lovingly died for us, so that through his precious blood we may be saved.
Thank you for this article!