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This saying of Jesus' has often been hard for me to fully grasp as well and I'm glad that you brought it up. After reading your post I asked the Lord to remind me if there was any time in my walk with Him where this type of thing had happened that I might share...and I got a blank at first. "So what did you mean by this Lord?" I wondered,"I need to understand this better.You tell us to forgive ,forgive and forgive again and so I am always desiring to maintain an abiding willingness within my heart to do just that.This to me is the safest,most blessed state of being,a crucial place to abide.So when would something like this come into play?"I know that there have been times when I have automatically forgiven someone(who perhaps was ignorant of their sin and had not come to me to ask for forgiveness,this is usually the norm) for his part in a wrong perpetrated against me (or Christ in me),only to see him struck down immediately and at the point of death.Wanting to go to the hospital and pray, filled with compassion for them,I asked to be allowed to go, only to have Him say..."you can go pray if you'd like,I know you forgive him (as is right for you to practice )but I do not forgive him and I won't heal him,he will die and I am removing him from his position(head of christian services for that county)to replace him with another who will better represent me." Wow,ok, so some things when God has had enough...well I guess He's had enough.Then there have been times,for instance, when someone who tried to take authority over me and my movements using religious doctrines of demons coupled with obviously twisted motives persisted, regardless of my loving response and subsequent refusal to acknowledge their authority over me,in the matters at hand..wham struck down right there at my feet with multiple heart attacks,so after checking w/ the Father to see what was happening to him, off to the hospital we went,praying earnestly for his survival.Hours later after calling a long list of folks(many of the calls being long distance) at a generous and hospitable sister's house, ( this person's prayer-partners list he gave to me when the doctor's took him was very extensive)I went outside to get a breath of fresh air and stretch a bit,and look up into the night sky.That is when I heard the voice of the Lord say to me " Well! Do you want him to live or to die?" Lord why do you ask me? I am not a righteous judge as you are! Then,"Look at what he has done"..as God replays many scenes of the days proceeding this moment...yes,Lord I know that he overstepped his bounds... but you asked me to have pity on him and to help him to get where he needed to go. Look how he has been wounded, surely this must be taken into consideration,I know that he has a heart after you Lord,he has given everything to go where you send him and besides this stuff does not hurt me,really,it's no big deal to me!I'm not offended,this just seems typical,'par for the course'! Then He said "This journey I have sent you on,in My authority for My purpose is of greater importance than you know or can see at this time and I will not tolerate anyone to interfere with My Will in this mission,especially when it is concerning usurping the authority I have given you to walk in!" Whoa! ok,I'm thinking,having a little better grasp of the seriousness of the matter as to His perspective,Him who knows all things,yet still compassion reigns steady and strong in my heart...this man is a gifted and sincere though wounded warrior and has believed lies that he now acts upon( a common malady amongst many believers)I could be him if it were not for Your mercy Lord ,of course I want him to live, save him Jesus!. Next morning,during my private time,as I was reading about king Hezekiah being given 15 more years to live,the Lord said "I have given him 15 more yrs."Later that day,on our way to go praise and worship,celebrate God's goodness with some youth we'd met earlier that day at a restaurant, police cars sirens and lights started flashing all around us and we slowed,pulling over,as these in earthly authority pulled a U turn and sped off in the opposite direction.My traveling partner and I looked at each other wonderingly as I heard Jesus say " did you visit me when I was sick and in the hospital? He asks me for you to come visit.Will you go?"So we made an abrupt u turn and drove to the hopital. While at the hospital after questioning the staff, who's story was"It was bad..we were losing him from 5pm till about 11:30 he'd suffered multiple heart attacks progressively worsening until some kind of miracle, we don't know how but suddenly every thing shifted and he speedily began to recover! I had glanced at the clock when I'd finally put down the phone to go outside.It was approx. 11:22 when I'd gone out to stretch.Oftimes I see this particular story as a testing of my own heart...would I choose mercy over judgement? I also know that He says that we will judge the earth.However I believe it is not the way many would like to think.I believe that if we stay in that place of righteousness,Love,the wisdom and understanding that comes from God's mercy and forgiveness, His true Justice will prevail.He judges everyone who crosses our path,with whom we interact,etc,and knowing this we must be spurred on to an ever increasing sense of responsibility (what I like to refer to as the ability to choose to respond righteously vs. the kneejerk type of reactions that are born of our own woundedness or lack of divine love and forgiveness.) The aforementioned scenerios are obviously still not giving us a further clue into solving the puzzle to your and my query,but I include them to show contrast and because these are the two I was given to recall before He reminded me of an instance that was more recent and appears to address this question of someone not being forgiven, because we withhold it. As I have sought,prayerfully, to relate this story in a manner that includes the main points,without giving too many insignificant details,I realize that again it has to do with usurped authority(a specific position I was given) and an act of violence upon my person(with some verbal abuse) and later a misrepresentation of the facts as they stood, combined with a twisted though typical attempt to divert blame from themselves for their misdeeds by implicating me as the guity party.Such unpleasantness.I'd been hearing of this man's attempt to wiggle out of taking responsiblity for his actions and had been praying for him as I was upset and wanted to forgive him.I knew the bruises on my arms would fade as would the shock to my physical body from the violence.Having suffered many beatings in my life,I know how important forgiveness is to my own recovery emotionally as well..I also realize that this type of forgiveness is somewhat selfcentered,Like giving because you know you will be given to...basic...and so I confessed that I wanted to reach that higher place in forgiving him that I know only Jesus can provide.It was easy to see what this preson's difficulties were,I knew where he was decieved and much of what he'd suffered (during the time I was working with him on this particular project,he had poured out his heart,as most folks do when they sense the presense of the Comforter within you) and I had gently and freely counseled him.I really wanted this man to find you Jesus and to know the freedom of you love!Having left the whole thing there at His feet I thought no more of it.Then a week of so later,while in deep and meditative prayer,listening to the sound of the waterfalls(we lived very close to the earth,in large open tents and yurts etc.in close proximity to one of the large streams that flows down the north side of the island of Maui,ah the luxury of the simple life!)and the birds singing simple praise to God, my good friend who was also involved in the project,approached me respectfully (though she owned the land) saying that this man was on the land and wanted to speak to me.Yes, of course. She returned with him and I told him that he could sit outside(God had said,Don't allow him to come inside.)He countenanced a look of contrition,asking me to forgive him and though my soul wanted to say yes and get this whole thing over and done with,I could feel my spirit assert a firm and steady sterness within and I suprised myself by asking him "and what is it that you have done that you need me to forgive you?" He was silent for a while,a struggle going on within and then finally shook his head as if the answer were beyond him. He said 'You should just forgive me because I am asking for your forgiveness.'I prayerfully considered this before the Lord.My reply was to tell him that as a mother when my children do wrong and find themselves out of favor with me,they will come to me and ask me to forgive them ,to assuage their guilt so they can then bask in the undiminshed warmth of my love,however,if they are not able to tell me what they have done wrong,I would have them go to a quiet place to reflect upon their actions or attitudes untill they can own up(take responsibility by being able to admit to their sin...to themselves and to me)I would not be of any help to them in understanding their wrongdoing if I do not train them to understand the seriousness of their words or actions. There would be no real repentance and they would more than likely repeat the wronddoing again.His response was to say that he was not my child...I replied that if he was going to behave like a child and refuse to admit to his wrongdoing that I would have to treat him like I would any child.I could not pronounce forgiveness for the things he had done (as it was given to me to do this in this circumstance),for me to do otherwise would be to do him a great disservice. He grumbled and groused as the facade of humble contrition fell away from his features to expose his proud denial. Leading him away to another part of the land,a more communal area, my friend looked at me with wide eyes questioningly.I returned her look sadly,shrugging my shoulders with outstretched hands,feeling very sorry that he couldn't come clean. She told me later that she'd had chores to do and left him to think about what I'd said.My,then 19 yr old son and slightly older friend told me that they'd come upon him sitting there and not knowing what was up but recognizing him to be the'abuser',approached him angrily,and in that threatening way young men oftimes display when their mother's honor or safety is at stake, scared him so silly that he fled,warning him never to lay hands on me again,or else he'd have them to deal with!They laughed and laughed afterwards in the telling,how it had mostly been an act,saying how they never intended to actually hurt him.To be honest,even though I still felt compassion for this frail soul,I found the unfolding of that day not only interesting but amusing as well.In the months following I heard many reports on this man's dwindling mental capacities and ragged appearance.I prayed for God to have mercy upon his soul and to deliver him from the deception of his psuedo-spiritual pride.
Our paths crossed again on the mainland 2yrs.later at a large gathering in Colorado when I saw him hovering about keeping his distance but obviously wanting to connect w/me.Prayerfully I asked "Lord if you want me to talk to this man then I know you will allow him to approach me,if not then I know he is still unrepentant." While sharing the gospel with a young Israeli soldier who'd been dogging me for answers to his many questions concerning the kingdom of heaven,this man began to head right for us and watching out of the corner of my eye I saw him hit an invisible barrier and caroom off at a different angle...thank you Jesus! This sort of thing happened on a few more occaisions during the gathering.In all honesty I do pray for this person on the rare occaision that God brings him to my attention ,he is simply not allowed to approach me until he is willing to admit where he was (and probably still is) wrong.I hope that these stories help in regards to the contrast and in the context in which they unfolded. Thanks again for asking the questions that cause others to ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking for the answers. Shalom, your sister in Christ Jesus Destiny

Jesus was addressing the church leaders in a leadership capacity. If they believed a person was not walking in such a way as to receive forgiveness, they had option to withhold it. Consider the man in Corinth who was in unrepented of sin. The congregation gloried in their forgiveness to the point the man was stuck in a sin that would lead to eternal death.

Paul rebuked the church, released the man to the authority of the god he was serving, Satan, so that the man might see his sin in this life, judge himself, repent, and no longer be in need of eternal judgment. This happened and Paul was able to reinstate him, with total forgiveness.

These are my thoughts, not a doctinal statement, but I think they make sense.

Sincerely,
Tim Reinagel
www.perfectinglove.com where we have free teleconferences twice weekly if you are interested. I am covering the topic of repentance and forgiveness tonight as a matter of fact! Your question is well presented!

I have come across a scripture that I don't understand, could you please assist me in the matter?

I have read various scriptures that require us to forgive.
All the bible verses listed here are taken from THE LIFE RECOVERY BIBLE - NEW LIVING TRANSLATION.

Matthew 6:15 - but if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 18:23 - 35 (Story of the unforgiving debtor)
vs.35 - that's what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters in your heart.

Mark 11:25 - but when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too.

Luke 6:37 - Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. Stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. If you forgive others, you will be forgiven.

Ephesians 4:32 - Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13 - You must make allowances for each other's faults and forgive the person who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, so you must forgive others.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS FOLLOWING PASSAGE AND NEED CLARIFICATION ON THIS, PLEASE.

JOHN 20:23 - IF YOU FORGIVE ANYONE'S SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN. IF YOU REFUSE TO FORGIVE THEM, THEY ARE UNFORGIVEN.

This Jesus said to the disciples that were in attendence in the locked room, his first visit with them after his resurrection. What was Jesus telling them? What did he mean? How does this apply to us? I need to understand this in harmony with all the numerous scriptures (many not included here) that speak about forgiveness.

Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Debra