I understand that paganism is a growing religious force in the world today. Also, there are quite a number of forms of paganism - Druidism, Wicca, Witchcraft just to name a few. Perhaps you feel that your rituals and other spiritual activities will help to save the Earth from self-destruction. You may distrust Christianity for quite a few reasons. You can't stand the doctrine of eternal punishment, and you probably feel that most Monotheistic religions, especially Christianity, are a hindrance to spiritual development.
Most pagans are polytheists (they acknowledge and worship more than one god or goddess). You probably believe that these divine powers are within you and you need to get into harmony with them. You may be a Nature-Worshipper of some form.
Some Preliminaries
1. Points we may have in common.
a. We believe in the reality of a spiritual world that exists now in parallel with the physical universe. Many churches are spiritually dead - emphasizing "club rules" and not a personal encounter with the divine. But more and more churches are coming alive and are learning what it means to have a relationship with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has greater power than all the rest of the angels and demons combined.
b. We believe that it is good for us to care for our environment. As a Christian, I believe that God gave us this world to look after and enjoy, but not to abuse. So I would sympathise with attempts to limit ecological destruction and the spread of pollution. In my view it is sinful to ruin the environment for personal or corporate profit. The Bible talks of God "destroying those who destroy the earth" (Rev. 11:18).
But the very fact that we have potential to harm Nature proves to me that Nature itself is not divine. A deity which can be destroyed is not worth worshipping. Christians see the beautiful things in Nature as part of the "created order". Just as a beautiful musical piece points to the existence of a gifted and creative composer, so Nature points us to am infinitely wise, good and caring Creator.
The basic error is to "worship that which is created instead of the Creator". Which is better - the work of art or the artist, the book or the author, the created or the Creator? To worship that which is created is to be truly out of harmony with the Creator and that which is truly enduring and eternal.
Our God has been answering prayers and doing wonders since the world began. Whether you like it or not, there is nothing you can do to directly harm Him. Surely one day you will stand before Almighty God and give an account for your life, even including your secret thoughts. What will you say then?
c. I believe that Christians should not seek political power in order to persecute those with other beliefs. As this has been done by the Historical Church over the years, all I can say is I'm sorry and hope not to be a part of such a thing. As Christians we DO have our standards of beliefs and ethics, but hopefully Christians will realise that the weapons with which we attack deception and evil are primarily spiritual. Our swords are made of words, not metal.
A truly wise Christian does not get involved in "witch hunts". "He who searches for evil, it will surely come to him." A lot of innocent people have been killed, especially by the apostate Roman Catholic Church during the middle ages. It was not only witches, but also many innocent people AND many born-again evangelical believers that were tortured and put to death by the Inquisition.
Of course a Christian who knows the Bible rejects many of the fundamental tenets of paganism. We believe though that these tenets must be demonstrated to be wrong. Our God is greater than all of your gods put together. And of course, our Ultimate Victory will be when Jesus Christ returns as King and Judge. Until then the Kingdom of God will only manifest in part, mostly where it is welcomed and embraced. We will continue in prayer and fasting, Christian meditation and acts of truth and mercy so that more and more may taste of the goodness of God personally before it is too late.
As for the spiritual harm that some pagans do through witchcraft and magical arts, God is well able to deal with that and return any curses back to the sender. We will pray on for you that you will have a revelation of God's love and truth before it is too late.
WHAT ARE SOME PAGAN BELIEFS?
Pagans reject the Judaeo-Christian God of the Bible for alternative gods and goddesses. I'm not sure what the reason is for this in most case. Many if not most pagans do not believe in the existence of Satan, or the devil. For example, I get mail on a fairly regular basis from Wiccans who assure me that they do not worship Satan or the devil. You can read some of it here.
Read messages from Wiccans who have read this page and responded.
To give a full report of the many and varied beliefs in various pagan systems is outside the scope of this website. I realise that some of the comments I make may be applicable to some pagans, but not others. I have found, even from reading the mail sent to me by many, that there are conflicting claims about what it means to be a witch and who has the right to be called such, and so on.
Some pagans just find our God unreasonable and his
interdictions against witchcraft cruel and narrow-minded. Others feel that our
God might be OK as long as He makes us happy on our path, and leaves them on
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i was raised a roman
i was raised a roman catholic who is slowly converting to paganism...perhaps wicca, if you will but not necessarily a "witch" who casts spells.
how can i be sure that my "gods" are not deceiving me?
easy. the god and goddess, as well as the others are together, one entity. perhaps i am wrong in this.
and if, by chance, when i die i am faced with the Christian God who looks back on my life with me, asks me of my religious choice and what caused it, what do i expect? if God is merciful and understanding, he will understand that it wasn't to worship demons and satan.
i could also just be an ignorant 19 year old.
Isn't TB Joshua one of the
Isn't TB Joshua one of the "gospel of health and wealth" people who are currently taking advantage of the poor?
TB Joshua and the poor
From what I know, TB Joshua is personally giving much to the poor, and teaching others to give to widows and orphans as a priority. They spend a fortune on helping widows and orphans every month. For a long time, TB Joshua did not even have his own bank account, and would actually give money to those who received healing through his ministry. He refuses to let his own church members celebrate him by putting his face on T-Shirts - my wife heard him rebuke this stuff in the strongest terms.
Probably the real reason he has been attacked by other Nigerian ministries is because he so exposes them as GREEDY self-centred self-glorifying ministers who are laying up personal treasure on earth - not so much by his words but by his example.
TB Joshua - Behind The Pulpit
I have personally been to The Synagogue Church Of All Nations in Lagos Nigeria and have observed TB Joshua's ministry 'behind the pulpit'.
What I can testify to is a man humbly and completely submitted to the will of God in every area of his life. I received scriptural and life changing teaching, saw people healed of every kind of ailment, demons delivered in Jesus' Name, precise and accurate prophetic messages both to individuals and concerning major international events. I witnessed broken families reunited and catered for in the church premises, alongside an incredible compassionate ministry where widows, orphans, physically challenged and the lowly in society where all given substantial gifts, as well as bags of rice, and scholarships for the children unable to go to school. In every conceivable aspect, people's focus is directed to Jesus Christ, and not to Joshua.
Those who are making negative remarks concerning the ministry - I implore you to go and see for yourself before jumping to baseless conclusions.
Watch his television station Emmanuel TV to see for yourself.
TESTIMONY OF TB Joshua
I have not been in Nigeria, neither I can say I know T.B well. I also don't defend Him. But I asked one dear Brother who is Nigerian friend about T.B Joshua and Why is so attacked. Let me quote what he answered me
"May Be those who are attacking him are jelous of him. But T.B is Man of God who preaches simplicity of Jesus. I know T.B and I have been there, he is really man of God. I just don't understand those people"
Ev. Steve Apologia md
____________________________
Jesus is Love
Jesus is God
By his stripes we were healed
BIBLE IS 100% Accuracy
Hello Good people! I would like to point few thing I don't like! It is because they are source of all these trouble we are facing as Christians from non Christians
1. Misrepresentation of Jesus! I have seen many so-calling themselves Christians but are cruel and non loving and apostate and..... you can go on. But does that make Christianity Cruel, apostate or non loving? No! You see, Jesus said that Summary of whole Law and Prophets is "Love God, Love neighbor as you love yourself". This Means, Bible is to be a measure of What Christianity is! NOT Personal opinions
2.Counterfeit Apostles and Prophets: This sickens me! The fact that there is counterfeit, assures presence of Genuine Miracles. In My Country there is great Christian teacher,Christopher Mwakasege whose passion is "Jesus is glorified". Many Miracles happens in His tent meetings in Jesus' name! For your information, One lady encountered Jesus that She needed no one to convince her about Jesus and she received Jesus instantly after her miraculous healing. Tumours dissolving, barren having children and all these have been in Hospitals with no hope!
Saying these, let me answer some queries presented here! Let me start question: If i say USA doesn't exist, does that make USA dissolve from existence? Or Much simpler if I say 2+2=9, does that make it so? No! Then when dealing with things of God, you better consider what is true rather than what You think is true!
Bible is 100% true and have proved to be so! Archeology have proved everything in the Bible to be real, Cities mentioned, coins used, Kings Lived, Emperors, and anyone considering evidence will have no doubt that Bible is true! Many Have been questioning Bible's Authority but I think it is the time to ask themselves why do they believe what they believe, and give evidence of what they believe to be true, and then question The Bible! If Bible being written by many writers, from different background, at different times is 100% accurate and contain no single contradiction, why Not believe that God spoke through it? If it is full of prophecy which were predicted many years and came to pass exactly as said why not believe that Bible is God speaking, who made the Universe? Does History support The Bible? Yes! Bible History is Not only true but accurate. Don't tell me that you don't know anything from History about Jesus! If that is the case just honestly re-study History
I have started posting in my weblogs in this site and in www.elijahministries.wordpress.com and consider to pass there and see what you can get there! I'm coming soon with Apologetic evidence on integrity and truth of the Bible, the word by which man is to live
Concern Adam, who allegedly said Jesus was cruel to cast out of Temple MoneyChangers, I have question for you! If you are teacher, and find student are playing football in class, would you stand with your books enjoying what they do? I Hope you wouldn't do it if you are sane. So what was Jesus cruelity by casting them out?
Also concerning pigs, who cruelly killed them? It is plain clear that demons which entered the swines. What Jesus did is permitting them what they petitioned! That shows clearly how cruel is god of pagans.
Lastly, I have to ask all who are pagans, How sure are you if you die today, you will 100% GO TO PLACE OF REST NOT OF TORMENT? And How sure are you that your gods/goddeses are true and that they created universe. I perceive all false religions as pathways back to Babylon, with same intention of Rebuilding unfinished tower of Babel!
Ev. Steve Apologia md
You are entitled to your
You are entitled to your beliefs, however misplaced they may be. The only point I would like to make is that you use the confusion as to what makes one a witch as an argument against witchcraft. I have met many Christians who have differing views on what makes one a Christian. Some people believe it is following the Bible as much as possible, or living a good life in line with Christian principles, some believe simply believing in God and Jesus, others being baptised and so on and so forth. So please do not use the fact that many witches do not know if they are coming or going as a point of debate, because many Christians are exactly the same way. Sadly witchcraft has become something of a fad, but that does not make it less valid for many of us who are dedicated.
Blessings.
The central issue to start with is the resurrection
Its not the internal disagreement among practitioners of paganism and witchcraft that discredits it. It is the failure to adequately deal with the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that implies which in my view makes all those views faulty.
my questions is....?
Hi my name is Luca,
I have been reading the posts between the different people here and Adam. He seems like he really believes what he is saying. I was raised in a church and am not sure where I am going but some of what Adam say’s and some of what you all say are kind of the same. I mean what makes Jesus so different from the Gods that Adam worships? Is there? I am going to look for the books he talked about. I also heard there was like a hundred books that were originally in the bible that got taken out. Is that true? If it is, then can someone tell me why? Part of me wonders if Jesus is the way or is it Paganism. I don’t want to fight, I just want some answers.
Thanks,
Luca.
What is that?
What is that stuff The poster Adam left at the end of his last post?
response to what is that
I instantly recognized the writing as Latin since my mother was a Latin teacher....I tried to translate it but came up with a warning on my computer that I was in jeopardy of a virus...I think he is telling us to listen to what he has to say since he is a wise and sane man and the master at the helm and that we are being deceived for he is the teacher of wisdom and to taste of what he says and there was something about a puzzle ...Again I will state that his doctrine is nothing new but the doctrine of demons and anyone pursuing this doctrine are the ones who are being deceived....I may be totally off on the translation but I know there are people who can easily translate what was said...
Today's Worship of Baal
Baal worship is still practiced maybe not in such extreme as the ancients but Baal is still around...Some of his fruits are homosexuality, poronography, abortion, drugs, child porn, child slavery, mutilation, cutting, lust ect..Baal is in all the ancient religions but he is known by another name suited to that religion... Baal is also the one who wants to possess and is on a constant agenda going after the next generation...
baal
Are you saying that Baal is the devil or is he something else? My older brother said that Baal and the Satan are the same our Bible study.
Rus.
Baal Is A False God
I am saying that Baal and the devil are not one and the same...Baal is a false god/demon and is subject to Satan...Any false gods are in Satan's kingdom and are under Satan's leadership...May 1st was a holiday and is still celebrated throughout the world and it honors Baal and thus honors Satan...Cick onto the recent posts "The Beltain Celebration" .....This is an enlightening blog.....
Blessings............
Thank you
Thank you for clearing up what you were saying. I was not 100% sure. There are a lot of people my age that are in churces around my area that are starting to doubt what the Bible teaches. Its hard to be asked so many hard questions and not really understand the Bible all that well myself. I have to fight a lot of doubt too because these pagans at school are smart and have a lot of answer to defend thier faith with. Lots of it sounds good or even right but my brother keeps telling me that they are not and so I keep trying to gorw in Jesus.
Rus
Thank you.
Thank you for posting my comment. I was taken back a little but I have just a little more respect for at least one Christian now. I look forward to your reading your thoughts on the subject.
Respectfully,
Jay
One Pagans reply.
Dear Michael I took the time to do some light reading on your site, which I came across by mistake. Still I found it to be interesting if lacking. You make some errors that show your superficial understanding of what Paganism is. I am in no way attacking you personally and think it is very needful to be as polite as possible while answering such articles as you have written. That is what I would like to do here bit by bit. So I will take what you have written and then give it a reply form this Pagan’s personal world view. I speak for me and my understanding of Poly-theology. I hope you will read this and if you take nothing else form it; it is my hope that you will at least learn to agree to disagree. So now we may start.
1. Pagan reply: Yes, we do some of the things you listed in common. Churches are dead, rotting corpses. They are “Clubs” with clicks. I would agree that many Pagans do not trust Christians because Christians tend to be some of the cruelest people you will ever come into contact with. This of course simply reflects their spiritual heritage. Starting with the Jesus of the gospels, who I strongly suspect was a fictitious person. Jesus assaulted the money changers in the temple. These money changers had a long standing tradition of providing a service, one that predated Jesus by a considerable amount of time. He took a Roman whip and accosted them and turned over their tables. This can be found in John 2:15 and Mark 11:15 as well as in Matthew 21:12. It shows his criminal and “thug” like mentality. He also steals another man’s herd of swine by murdering them and displaying his cruelty towards animals and psychopathic behavior. This is in Mark 5:12, 13. These are just two examples of His cruelty. Then his church (the Orthodox Roman/ Greek Church) spent well over a thousand years bathing the earth in people’s blood. Protestants have and still do a lot of harm both physical and physiological. Thus they follow in his footsteps or the footsteps of the character created by the likes of Paul and the writers of the Gospels. We would part on the “holy sprit” part, a non entity, with no power.
2. Pagan reply: I am glad that some Christians believe it’s good to care of the earth. Yet so far as I have seen it is not a core Christian belief and it is one that has only begun in more recent times. Most Christians that I have come into contact with think that because the tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews gave them so called “dominion” over the earth that they can blatantly rape our mother planet. I hope that the next generation of Christians will follow your lead in concern for our planets health. It is refreshing to see that at least a few Christians are waking to the irresponsibility that we as humans have acted with. Yet sadly, here is where your (Christian) superficial understanding comes into play. Nature is not divinity itself. Rather it is a reflection of poly-divinity as are all creatures living on mother earth. The fact that all souls and all of Nature contain a divine “spark” within it should be no surprise. In fact the entire known and unknown universe is but the physical matter created around and infused with the glory and power of the eternal Gods!!! Thus to assume as most Christians do that we worship the “created” VS the creators misses the mark. As far as destroying Mother Earth is concerned, we are destroying our habitable environment more then the earth. If we keep this up we will poison our living space to such a point that the Earth will cleanse herself of the parasitic like creatures we are becoming. When this is done, it seems likely to me that a different animal will rise to take our places and the earth will be renewed again. Thus we would do well to be mindful of this. The other thing that I have noticed here is that Christians (or maybe a small number of them) seem to think that Neo-Pagans are out to “harm” their fictitious god. This is not the case. If Christians really wish to dally in such fantasies then that is their right. I for one fully support their rights to pray in Jesus name in their churches and homes and even in a public park where I might be. I for one just want them to let us alone and to have equal protection for my rights under the law as well as in practices. Neo-Pagans are aware of your faith and its ideas. We simply have rejected them. Most Neo-Pagans were Christians at some point. Most of us are more likely to know the Biblical text better then current Christians because we took time to really investigate the text most thoroughly, instead of taking our former preacher/pastor/ priests/ reverends’ word or particular teaching at faces value. We did the unpardonable, we thought for ourselves. This must be a most grievous sin in the eyes of a cruel deity that demands robotic like faith. What all of this of course means is that there will never come a time when we stand before your god to give an account of anything. I would say that your god is standing before us giving a very long account of his very long list of “sins”.
3. Pagan reply: Thank you very much for seeing the historical evil of the Christian Church and for the apology! It is far too few Christian people who stand up to the facts of history with such humility and renounces such atrocities. It is also very reliving to know that not all Christians would drive us thru with a sword or with a bullet. The Inquisition was a very bloody time for many people of many faiths. May such days never be seen again! Having said this, it is now necessary to address your remarks on our faith being “Wrong”. It is of course your right to reject the tenets of our faith as we have rejected yours. As my father says “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”. Still anyone who will study the Bible without their pre-indoctrinated ideas will clearly see the many gaping holes that litter this man made (invented) book. It will become very clear that the blood of Jesus could never atone for any sin and he will never “come again”. Lastly for point three, to assume that there is some large number of Pagans casting spells of harm upon innocent Christians for no other reason then that they are Christians or that we are evil, shows the taint of bigotry and spiritual oppression left over form the so called “Holy Inquisition”. We have no interest in you other then as people and the protection of our own rights.
4. Pagan reply: You are right in that the way Neo-Pagans understand Poly-theology is sundry, a veritable smorgasbord. However what you fail to realize is that religion is MAN’S ATTEMPT to touch the divine. Your Bible is NOT historical fact and neither is the so called resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact there is not one true strand of if evidence for the life of this Jewish man. If you claim the bible as your proof…try again. It is a quasi- historical /Gnostic religious text. Show me one verifiably authenticated extra-Biblical source that proves the life of Jesus (Joshua) son of Marry (Miriam) little lone his so called divinity. The Mythos (Mythos is a Greek word meaning "story, legend") of the Gods and Goddesses were/are a way of early/modern man to better understand some basic truths. When you look beyond the basic story and dig deeper you can see the “meat” of the mythos. To do less is to cheat your self of great truths and beauty. If anyone has a reason to doubt your Bible it is all people who freely think for themselves. We have true reason to believe in our faith. The Gods have ruled always, without impeding our freedom of choice. Thus a reawakening begins for Paganism while Christianity slowly degenerates and dies.
5. Pagan reply: I must start here with your obvious and glaring mistaken understanding on some points. For the record I am not a Satanist. I do however know that 99% of Satanist are not out there killing people (which is a lot more then can be said for the Church historically, both the Catholics and Protestants) for their ideas of divinity (when such ideas are even present) as some kind of sacrifices. There are different sects of “Satanism” such as LaVeyan Satanism, espousing social Darwinism, hedonism, Randi Objectivism, Nietzsche like philosophy and atheism. This all uses Satan as a metaphor. There is also Theistic Satanism and from the few people that I have met that do practices this faith they fall more along the lines of worshiping Semitic Gods of Chaos, such as Seth. Then you have a very slim minority that does their (immature) best to live up to the shocking claims of Christians by being loud, potty moth’s with far too much time on their hands; that do not go as far as actually killing anyone little lone torturing or eating Christian babies. Then you have the last group of people that are from all walks of life and faith, calling themselves many things that do kill people. I call them crazy criminals. We have (thankfully) a committed Law enforcement and judicial systems that imprison and punish such as these. I hope that this will clear up you error. Next, while I think that the Satanists are simply somewhat silly, I fully support their right to be silly as much as I support the silly Christians’ right to be silly. You asked if our sprits have always told the truth. YES. You then ask: “Did it work out always the way the spirit said it would”? YES. You then ask: Has it ever seemed to you that the spirit was somehow mocking you? NO. I thus return the questions to you. Like I said before, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. As for Your claims that the Christian boogie man “the Devil” is tricking and seducing me and other non-Judeo-Christians, I say yours is just another small voice in a sea of fearmongers. Saying things that are as ludicrous as telling me that the Earth is flat. It’s a very outdated and unreasonable statement in the face of the evidence to the contrary. Their is no devil and no Triune Christian god. When you pass from this earth (die), you will find that you lived your life/lives in misery and discontentedness unnecessarily. Surely such a one as your self must at least have had (at some point) this inkling that Christianity is the child of “Classical” Judaism, who in turn is the daughter of ancient Monotheistic Zoroastrianism. Besides all of this, if there is any deceiving going on, it is your Bible and the men who wrote it that have deceived you and yours. For all the tall stories of the Bible are simply regenerated Zoroastrianism mythoi. One short example of this would be that Zoroaster taught that Ahura Mazda is a transcendental and universal god, the one uncreated Creator to whom all worship is directed. Sound familiar? It should, this is the same description the Hebrews used for their tribal deity, a description they took form Zoroastrianism, the same one that the early Christians as well as modern ones have carried over from the Hebrews. Maybe Christians should do some comparisons between the Bible and The Avesta. It would be indispensable in a better understanding of the true origins of your faith. This is simply my humble suggestion. Please be at least a little bit willing to consider the evidence for the Good News that I bring to you: You can be at last truly free of your spiritual enslavement if you just open your mind. I hope you do at least take the time to read this, if not post it. Many times Christians are too daunted to post replies to their articles. If you don’t I won’t be mad. I wish you well in life.
Bright blessings,
Jay
This is enough for now
I haven't time to reply further right now.
Caring for the earth
You write: "I am glad that some Christians believe it’s good to care of the earth. Yet so far as I have seen it is not a core Christian belief and it is one that has only begun in more recent times. Most Christians that I have come into contact with think that because the tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews gave them so called “dominion” over the earth that they can blatantly rape our mother planet."
God gave authority over the earth to Adam, Eve and their descendants. It was to CARE for the garden, not to rape and destroy the earth. So the mandate is there from Day One in the Judeo Christian worldview, not something coming only "in recent times" as if in response to the doctrines of pagans.
In the Book of Revelation it talks about God destroying those who destroy the earth, so there is the flip side.
On the Holy Spirit
You write: "We would part on the “holy sprit” part, a non entity, with no power."
It is good for you that you obviously have no knowledge of the Holy Spirit, because if you had, I doubt if God could forgive you for saying that.
You need to get acquainted with what the Holy Spirit is doing through men of God today. I have seen miracles of God which He has worked through my own life, but I am nowhere near some people in faith. Again I would refer you to "T.B. Joshua" or even look up "John Mellor" if you want a western example. "Rambabu" who features on my website is opening the door for tremendous miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, in India and even in western nations. "Heidi Baker" is another good example of someone filled with the Spirit of God, as would be "Bill Johnson" in California. Do some research if you care to be informed. These things are a matter of public record and can be seen on youtube and by going to the various places.
You are speaking in total ignorance, so that is forgivable. The Holy Spirit is the one by whose executive power the Universe is upheld.
Was Jesus cruel?
Jesus was known for his compassion to the poor, the outcast, the widows and the sick. The Scripture does reveal He had a disregard for business enterprises which were clearly in violation of God's law. In those days, pigs were forbidden meat (for good health reasons too). So if the demons wanted to go into the pigs and destroy them, good riddance. Would you rather the demons stayed in the man to torment him? This is where Jesus is different to many today. Many would put commercial interests way above the interests of the peace of the soul of man. So they sell pornography, set up casinos, deal in drugs and so forth - all proven soul destroyers. These things are big money enterprises. Jesus hates them and if enough Christians prayed in faith God would close these things down. It has happened before. People BEFORE profits. Hardly cruelty.
Some professing Christians are cruel and hard hearted. That is because we have failed to reveal Christ and have instead at times followed after the things Jesus hates - like avarice, lust and the praise of men.
Some professing Christians are not disciples of Jesus at all, but were opportunistic religionists seeking to conquer the world using religion as a means to that end. Hence wars in the name of religion.
Was Jesus Cruel? YES.
The Bible talks of the compassion of Jesus, yet it seems to be for the select few who gave him the money he sought after, you’ll have no doubt have noticed that it was rich women that primarily funded his ministry.. As you pointed out the Bible shows his disregard for the business of others, which is by extension is a disregard for civil society, which is based of the very real need of people to be able to earn a living. No where in the incident with the savagely drowned and murdered pigs dose the Bible say they were being kept for food stock purposes. Shoes have been made from multiple layers of swine skins (a very cruel practice, I am vegan in case you want to know.) So the Pigs in question could have been kept for many reasons, not just the one you assume. Even so, if they were being kept for food, there were Goyim (Gentiles) in that area that had no such restriction on their diets, as the Torahs 613 commandments do not apply to them. There were after all Paleo-Pagans. Pork was an acceptable food for them and was offered at the temple of Zeus. Another question that is over looked here is why not just cast them out? Why cast them into anything else at all? Neither the man nor the animals (humans are just another animal after all) had to suffer needlessly. This action (if it had really happened) by Jesus would be very cruel indeed, just is as our habit of hurting animals today. As for the other things you mention here, well, gambling when done with responsibility is not a bad thing. The same can be said with most other activities. Anything in excess is bad for you. All it takes is a little reasoning to know what to do and what not to do. And as you say, there are good Christians and Bad Christians. It just seems a shame to me, that more of your co-religionists seem to be the later instead of the former. I for one would sit and eat with any kind person, regardless of their professed faith or none at all as long as they are kind people. Thus the character of Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible, I would most likely not sit with.
Adam
Jesus healed freely
Adam writes: "The Bible talks of the compassion of Jesus, yet it seems to be for the select few who gave him the money he sought after, you’ll have no doubt have noticed that it was rich women that primarily funded his ministry."
I don't know which Bible Adam is reading, but Jesus frequently healed "all who came to him" and they brought multitudes to him at times. For example:
Mark 1:32 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.
Mark 1:33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door.
Mark 1:34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.
Jesus did many signs and wonders.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
There is no record of Jesus asking those he healed to fund his ministry. Jesus told his disciples, "Freely you have received, freely give". And I am sure that was His policy also.
Multitudes were attracted to Jesus because of his compassion for the poor. But the Pharisees hated him, because they were lovers of money and Jesus was not good for their business.
Adam, the spirits in you really hate Jesus, to the point where it seems you cannot even read the text of the gospels straight.
I am not going to let this site become a forum for unreasonable blasphemies, so I think it is better that we leave it here as long as you want to calumnify Jesus.
Jesus dealing with the money changers
Adam, you refer to the incident of Jesus driving out money-changers. You write: "These money changers had a long standing tradition of providing a service, one that predated Jesus by a considerable amount of time."
What was really happening was that profiteering merchants had set up a kind of monopoly to take exorbitant profit from each and every person who wanted to honor God by obeying the Mosaic law. Under the pretense that Roman coins were unholy, they took the roman coins from people and sold them special temple coins with which to buy their animals for sacrifice. They had become "issuers of currency" with a monopolistic hold, taking advantage of all and sundry to line their own pockets. This God hates. God does not like people selling access to Himself, or attempting to do so. If coming to God is a matter of eternal life or death, you may understand why Jesus took steps to show God's anger at these corrupt and greedy practices.
Similarly, all churches that claim a monopoly on the grace of God and commercialise that "grace" by demanding offerings in exchange for the release of God's blessings provided at great cost by Jesus on the cross, these churches are an abomination to God.
Money changers and Jesus
I would agree that they would make large profits at the expense of the pilgrims. Every Israelite, rich or poor, who had reached the age of twenty, was obligated to pay a half shekel as an offering too Ha-Shem (Hebrew for god, meaning by default too the sacred treasury.)This tribute was in every case to be paid in the exact Hebrew half shekel. At Passover everyone in the world who was an adult male and wished to worship at the Temple would bring his "offering" or purchase a sacrificial animal at the Temple. Since there was no acceptance of foreign money with any foreign image (do to the ban on images under Torah law) the money changers would sell "Temple coinage" at a very high rate of exchange and assess a fixed charge for their services. None of this however changes the fact that Jesus or Joshua had no authority to act in the criminal Manner that he did. It would be like you walking into a Church treasury and taking the money too toss out the door or a back for that matter. Because that is what the money changers were, a form of bank. Thus it was an economic system that the religious/Civil authorities allowed. No matter what else happened Jesus still accosted human beings with a potentially deadly weapon; he could have taken other steps if he felt that what they were doing was wrong. Thus it shows to me and many, many other people his brutality and possibly insane behavior. Lastly the death of Jesus on the cross (on which the Romans executed the worst criminals) amounted too nothing more then the death of a violent criminal and not the grace of any God.
Adam
Did Jesus have authority in the temple?
You are assuming that Jesus was not the Son of God acting on God's instructions. On this basis, of course, Jesus had no authority to clean up God's temple of sharks and money hungry merchants.
But your assumption is wrong. Jesus is the Son of God. He always took a keen interest in the will of His Father.
Its interesting that the crowd demanded that a violent criminal Barabbas be released in the place of Jesus. Pilate, the Roman governor, found Jesus not guilty but gave him over to death for fear of the Jews. So much for the theory that it was all about putting violent criminals to death.
Jesus never hurt anyone, only business interests of those who were flagrantly abusing God's temple or ignoring God's law.
When Jesus returns however, it will be for judgment. I hope you are doing well with the Ten Commandments, but I suspect, Adam, that like the rest of humanity you do not even live up to your own standards, let alone God's.
Did Jesus have authority, no.
Hello Michael,
You are correct; I am basing my arguments of the fact that Jesus was not the “Son of God”. Nothing in his life ever proves he is so! His supposed resurrection can not even be verified out side of the Bible, which is of course not a reliable text in the first places. Seeing as it is a religious text full of legends mixed with bits of history. So again, yes, he had no authority in the Temple of Ha-Shem (The Hebrews tribal deity) that (The Authority) belonged to the Chief priest and the civil magistrates. If they allowed these changers to be there then so be it. Is it morally wrong? Yes, I would agree with you that it was wrong for them to basically rob the poor. Yet as the saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right. The Charter of Jesus was just as wrong as the money changers. So when you claim that Jesus never hurt anyone, you are (respectfully) wrong. He accosted the people with a whip. He physically attacked them! When you do this, it causes pain, thus it is hurting someone. As far as it being interesting that the crowd demanded Barabbas be released instead of Jesus. Jesus was by far the worse criminal and trouble maker. He assaults people, kill’s other people’s animals, he went around causing trouble with the occupying Roman forces, risking the lives of millions of hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives, all the while inciting religious divide in a much fractured and religiously tense nation. The Jewish kingdom had no hope of over throwing their Roman conquers and their God did not seem very interested in freeing them himself. This of course was proven by the Jewish revolt that cased the Romans to burn the second temple. Thus Jesus was much more dangerous to the Nation then Barabbas was. So, they put to death a violent and rebellious criminal. As to my own standard of conduct and how well I hold up to my ethics, well over all very well thank you. Yet I too make mistakes. However, when I do make such mistakes, I do not fall back on the much used and lame excuse that “The devil made me do it”. I take account of my errors and mistakes. I alone am to blame when I mess up. I alone make amends for said mistakes. That is what makes me a responsible adult and human being. As far as the Christian God’s standards, well to be honest, they don’t apply to me. I am after all, not Christian. Besides this, the Bible is a book which on the surface appears to be about love and kindness, when in reality it is a book of atrocities and vile evilness. A book that allows its readers to go after “unbelievers”, a book of madness written by the hands of men filled with madness. The Apostle Paul would be a good example. The only true differences between radical Islam and the Radical Christianity that many practices is the body count is far in favor of the later. As for the Commandments, there are 613 mitzvot (commandments) not just the 10 that Christians pick and chose from. Now while I know some of what I have said sounds harsh, it is not said in anger. It’s just that the facts can be harsh in and of themselves at times. I am a big one for truth and personal integrity. Over all, I think that this is and will be a very productive exercise. With much regards and well wishes,
Adam
Which Jesus are you talking about, Adam?
Adam,
You like to put negative constructions on certain passages concerning the life and ministry of Jesus, and then deny the truthfulness of others that come from the same texts you are using to attack the character of Jesus.
You like to put yourself above the Bible as the authority over the Bible. Presumably, you get to decide which parts are "legends" and which parts are based on true historical accounts. Further, you get to read certain extra information into the text so that you can justify your attacks on the person of Jesus.
You dismiss the resurrection accounts of Jesus, which for your information are backed up by thousands of personal visitations since, hundreds of thousands of healings in Jesus' name and a lot more. You dismiss them because "His supposed resurrection can not even be verified out side of the Bible, which is of course not a reliable text in the first places. Seeing as it is a religious text full of legends mixed with bits of history." How is that you are an authority on the Bible now? Where did you get this knowledge?
If a miracle happens in Jesus' name, you side with conservative evangelicals who say it is done by occult power. So it doesn't count for evidence in your mind. Neither does the internal historical evidence. Neither does the testimony of the early church. You are in deep trouble, Adam. I would not trade places with you for all the oil in the Middle East.
I will be the judge of whether my limited resources of time are best employed in dialoguing with you, and whether you like it or not, I am getting ready to make a judgement that they are not.
One reason for this is that I am not sure we are even talking about the same Jesus. I am talking about the one whose deeds were recorded in the New Testament, who is at work today. You are talking about a Jesus who never rose from the dead, who was a violent criminal and deserved to be crucified for harming the business interests of pig farmers by casting demons out. Tell me, do you blame Jesus for casting the demons out? What were these demons that Jesus cast out? Was the casting out of demons a miracle? Or was it only a legend? If a legend, how can you connect Jesus' command (the demons recognised His authority even if you don't) to the loss of the lives of the pigs? But if the whole incident never happened, why are you criticising Jesus for it? I don't see how you can have it both ways. You are merely promoting unbelief and blasphemy and you want to have your cake and eat it too.
Just what I knew you would do...
Michael,
This of course has turned out no different then I had expected it to with a Christian. When hard facts and truth comes your way and you can’t handle it you all bail. It just took you longer. Which is more then I can say for some. So I applaud your valiant efforts as feeble as they untimely were. I shall of course respect your choice to discontinue our dialogue, thus after this finial post here I will not return. Yet because you did ask questions of me I will answer them before I depart as well as make a few parting comment upon your remarks as well as some of the over all problem I see. You of course may not post this as you are obviously afraid. Let me start with a very clear statement. Jesus NEVER lived, NEVER really taught anything and was the invention of some desperate Jewish heretics that was further elaborated upon by Saul of Tarsus; a sick and debauched individual who showed his hatred of women through out his epistles. This leads me and many other competent people to believe that he was homosexually inclined; doing is Jewish best to repress it. The Bible is NOT a true historical text, (though it dose add some true historical events for realisms and believability sake.) it is largely a religious text. This text is replete with “Legends” and fables. For the record I do not have to read “Certain Extra information” into the text, it’s all their, plain to see for anyone who cares to think for themselves instead of behaving as an automaton. This is something that you and most other Christians are incapable of doing. The factitious accounts of the person of Jesus leaves themselves open to attack by anyone with a minimal intelligences. Maybe you ought to stop in at X-Christians.com and read for yourself the stories of deliverances from you backward and vile faith. Yet it is well understood that some people can not be helped. You are one of them that are beyond helping, stuck as you are in this quagmire of Christian lies and filth. You are 100% correct, I am far above the Bible as are all FREE human beings. The weak willed and lost souls of the earth subject themselves to enslavement to this deranged book of insanity. Michael writes: “." How is that you are an authority on the Bible now? Where did you get this knowledge?” I spent 20 years as a Christian, very well versed in the study of the Hebrew Torah (which I speak and read fluently) as well as the Greek and Latin copies of the New Testaments. The English translations upon which you rely leave much to be desired. None of this even begins to address the fact that the New Testament as it is known today was compiled by a known tyrant and despot The Emperor Constantine the Great to solidify his political power. This is in good keeping with the history of Christianity over all, so no real surprises there. At any rate his little synod left out a lot of the other Gospels that were a part of the Christian legend. Be care sir on what you claim because most of the early Christians would not be caught dead with the likes of you modern Christians. Just ask the Cathari, O sorry, you can’t because they were savagely murdered by other Christians starting in the late 1100 thru the middle 1300’s. So I obtained my knowledge thru hard work and study of the foolishness that my very own mother still toils away in. It’s a sad and shameful thing indeed to know that my loved ones are stuck in this mire. By the way I do not side with any Christians of any sect…I was simply pointing out that your claims are not the only one to be hared among your faith group. I did this because you (as it seems from my point of view) write as if your take on Christianity and Christian people in general are the only valid ones, that if you call them Christians then they are and if you call them other then Christians then so they are. Many of your co-religionists would group you in the same category as you group them. Is it any wonder then that the Christian faith is slowly but inexorably dying? No. The first Christians sent out a spiritual contagion that has swept the earth and left the planet in a long time spiritual plague that has left many spiritually dead or dying. Now that the vaccine is being administered to the planet’s people with the rebirth of Paganism, your demise as a faith group is certain. It just takes time for the sick to get well again! Miracles happen because the Glory of The Gods allows it to be so. It has nothing to do with Jesus name. They unlike your false god are always looking out for the greater interest of humanity as a whole. When we damage ourselves, we reap what we have sowed. I am very glad that you would not “trade Places” with me. I am by far the one that is better off. You are the one in trouble, not that the Gods will punish you, you punish yourself daily by trying to living off of spiritual vomit. Michael you also wrote: “I will be the judge of whether my limited resources of time are best employed in dialoguing with you, and whether you like it or not, I am getting ready to make a judgment that they are not.” Well since you are the one who foolishly believes the Bible here’s another passage for you: Galatians 6:9: “And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” I know that you (from you twisted perspective) were trying to do well. You of course were set up for failure from the start by a corrupt faith. However the one thing that you nailed on the head is this, we are NOT talking about the same Jesus. YOUR JESUS IS A FALSE GOD!!! The invented Jesus that is written about in the New Testament is the one I spoke of. He is the insanity of men made manifest in a book. I attack this book because fools kill for it, openly harass others because of it and try to shove it’s vileness down the throat of others while trying to keep their “Flock of mindless sheep” deceived. It really has nothing to do with Pigs. It was one simple example of the mind set of the men who wrote this evil book. They could think of nothing better then to entertain their readers then with death. Of course that seems to have gone over your head. So do I blame a made up character for doing what his inverters made him do? No, that is silly. I simply meant to point out that the writers of this fiction show their own madness and the madness of their Character by tormenting animals, real or imagined. Because if they imagined it in this story, it is probably true that they (the writers) did torment real animals at some point. Why do you think that our mental health professionals ask questions of people about hurting animals? Because it is another clue into their psychosis. Thus I don’t have to have it both ways as you put it, you just could not see it because you are blind to the simplicity of truth. That’s to be expected with someone in your spiritual condition, I see it often, Christians that are locked into a cycle of illogical thinking and perpetual spiritual darkness! That’s why our planet went form the light of reason of Paganism with its many free thinkers and inventors to the dark, dank and dirty world of Christianity, where 90% of the people could not read or write, where plague killed rampantly because the masses crowded into churches to pray for deliverance from a god that did not exist; a world and way of life that has taken us nearly a thousand years to recover from. Do I hate Jesus, no, because he is not real! What I hate are the results that this book has caused when fools took it for more then the pack of lies that it is! One day Humanity WILL BE FREE! I do not wish you anything but health and a long life. May such a long life lead you and all of yours to Freedom one day soon!!!
Good bye,
Adam
A few comments to Adam
Adam, we have to learn to distinguish between things we can do or might be able to do and things we believe are worth doing. After 20 years of being some sort of Christian, you have evidently decided to deny that Jesus or the Holy Spirit even exists, and you view the Bible as a pack of harmful lies. In my mind the valuable resources of time and energy I could spend answering your objections (at least to my satisfaction, if not yours) have to be spent in other ways at this time. We all make choices about where we think we can best invest our time. It seems to me that you are being rather smug by assuming that just because I don't keep on and on with the discussion it means that I am unable to offer any meaningful response to the so-called "hard facts" you are bringing up, and that that is the reason I am "bailing". I won't be manipulated by such suggestions.
You are speaking with someone that has believed the promises in the Bible and has seen deaf mutes healed in remote villages in India through actions I have taken such as rebuking demons in Jesus' name or laying hands on people. Many many other miracles I have witnessed. These things are not in my power to control or I would not be perplexed by my own wife's own health setbacks. (She had a dead tooth which was poisoning her body). What I can say is that prayer in the name of Jesus can work dramatically. What I have seen on video with T.B. Joshua is just like what I have experienced myself but more so. Give glory to your gods if you want to, but we were busy casting out such beings as you worship, and people were getting healed.
I see no point in discussing the ethics of the Jesus of the Bible with you. What interests me, first and foremost, is the issue of whether Jesus of Nazareth is alive today. I contend that He is. God gives proofs, but never so many as to overwhelm people and leave no possible room for doubt. Its always possible to create unbelieving constructions on everything faster than believers can refute them, just as it is easier to create garbage than to clean it up. Its also possible to respond in faith to God. God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Yes, hell is real, and plenty of people now who were clinically dead and resuscitated have seen the horrors of it. These were mostly people who never believed in the reality of such a place. A knowledge of Greek and Hebrew won't save you here. Neither will your disbelief. Realities are there which do not ask our permission to exist.
The Christian faith is not dying. Rather, it is the unbelieving versions of it which are dying - those that have a form of godliness but deny the power of God. Go to Brazil or Argentina or China or Africa or India and try to tell me that Christianity is dying. Hah! It is the occultists who are losing ground in those places.
Just as paganism was overcome in the past, by people who were closer to the historical facts, so Jesus Christ, who is well able to reveal Himself again today, will destroy all the renewed efforts of the devil. Perhaps by His second coming. It remains to be seen how God will do it.
I contend that because Jesus rose from the dead, the grave is empty and the church was built on that confession, the Jesus you do not believe in will ultimately triumph. He, having been dead, but now alive, has the authority to tell us what actually lies beyond death's door. And you don't like what He says. It is nothing like what your philosophical speculations and superstitions would propose. Since you are well versed in the Bible, I don't need to remind you.
At some point things need to be rounded off. I don't know if it can be done cleanly but all I can say is I hope that God's truth will prevail in your life before it is too late.
Hopefully Adams not lost
It saddens me greatly when I see and obviously intelligent individual chose to not only turn their back on God, but to begin to worship other gods (demons) in order to justify their sin. The reason Adam cannot just ignore the Christian faith, but must condemn it is because of what God has written in his heart. He knows the sin he is living in is wrong, but instead of coming to Christ for forgiveness, he denies he ever existed. Some people run from Jesus, others chose to turn and fight. Adam has clearly chosen to fight, but it’s a fight he cannot win. Adam’s fight with Jesus will end either one of two ways. Either he will lose and spend eternity in hell or he will finally surrender to God’s will. I ran from Jesus for most of my life, but in the end, I surrendered. Praise God that I did. I pray that Adam will eventually stop fighting God and surrender. Then he will know what true freedom is all about.
What will you do upon your death???
I am wondering what you will do upon your death here on earth????I know that you know that you have somewhere or something to do when your life here on earth is over....I realize that you call yourself a pagan but just what have your gods done for you or make you critical of the Torah and the Bible??? You disrespected your mother who gave birth to you by saying she foolishly toils away in her faith (for the TRUE LIVING GOD)...Your mother's prayers for you to know the truth and be set free will be working in your life even when she passes away unlike your prayers to your gods which just evaporate into thin air...You are being deceived by your gods and their is a penalty to be paid and whereas when you come to Christ He has paid the penalty already for you....
Dear Warrior daughter...
Dear “warrior daughter”,
I clicked back over to this site so that I could see if Michael had see my finial post to him and or replied before I delete this site from my computers favorites and cookies. I happen to think it a good idea to here your opponents finial words. As I said I will not be post here again with him, but you are not him and he has not replied yet so I will go ahead and answer your post. Fair is fair after all. Yes you are right we all have somewhere to go after the physical death of our bodies. One this much we are in agreement. As far as what will happen to me, well there are many possibilities, I may well stay in what the Greeks called “Ἠλύσια πεδία” (in English: The Elysian fields) and the Celts called it Tír na nÓg , you get the idea or so I will assume. There is a chance that my soul may decide to come back to the Earth in a new body (Reincarnation) to do more work here that is badly needed. At no point will I ever go to Hell because your Christian concept of hell is a distorted rip off of the Greek “ᾍδης” (Hades) which is not eternal punishment ,With the possible exception of a few according to the mythos, which when understood by properly educated individuals is and will be more clearly understood. Yet I do not have the time today to teach you how to understand such a complex subject. If you would like to learn leave a post and I will gladly teach you some truth. Otherwise, you’ll just have to take my word for it. Hell is a rip off. Because Like other first-century Jews literate in Greek, early Christians used the Greek word Hades to translate the Hebrew word Sheol. Thus, in Acts 2:27, the Hebrew phrase in Psalm 16:10 appears in the form: "you will not abandon my soul to Hades." Death and Hades are repeatedly associated in the Book of Revelation. The Hebrew word “שאול” (Sh'ol), is a place of the dead or the underworld. In the Hebrew Bible, it is where the bad and the good, the pious and wicked must go at the point of death. In Ecclesiastes and Job, Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, there is no heaven and Hell. There is Just Sheol according to The Jewish Torah. Ask any Rabbi. I am glad that you understand that I am a Neo-Pagan and that the Bible has no authority over me or any one that knows what it is worth. What have the Gods done? What have they not done? They infuse the universe with their purity and Goodness. They have shown me wisdom; I have seen the gapping holes in the text of the Bible and the Torah. Both texts are refurbished Zoroastrian mythos. Basically, they are bad copies of some other people’s faith. I would suggest that you go back up and read my counter points to the original article written by the web master. As far as my mother, No, I did not disrespect her. I stated a very sad fact. She is still wrapped up in some very WRONG ideas on faith and toils in prayer to a god that is not real and claiming to be filled with a holy sprit that is nothing more then a figment of her imagination, planted by other deluded Christians. It is a foolish endeavor to please a false god, a waste of her time and very precious energy. She is an older woman now and not as health as she used to be. Instead of relying on her health answer to come to her from “Jesus” she ought to be seeing a doctor who can proscribe medicine that could greatly improve her quality of life. Instead she quotes scripture form an out dated and obsolete book, for example “By his stripes we are healed” and other such rubbish. Maybe if she had gone to a doctor instead of Jesus she would not have suffered two strokes just two years ago! And just so you know I was already a Neo-Pagan before her health started to go bad, and I told her to go see the doctors then. SO MUCH FOR YOUR FALSE god’s POWER! I laugh at your feeble god and his weak bravado! Again as far as who is being deceived, go read my first post here. ITS YOU! Your prayers and your false god are nothing, empty words that shatter like glass over jagged stones. You Christians toil pointlessly and are locked in a curricular illogical reasoning. WAKE UP PLEASE!!! I just wish you could all see who foolish you are all acting, bowing before a none existent god and feeding of dead regurgitated lies you call the Bible. It seems like you Christians are as bad as crack addicts, no matter what the damages are done you keep going back to get your next fix, knowing that it will just cause more pain but in the vain hope that it will help. It’s Useless, just so sad and useless.
May you be well.
Adam
Glass over jagged stones
This is an interesting comment from you in the fact that when I am working with someone who is demonized a lot of their demonic memories that they keep are pieces of sharp jagged glass cutting their very souls apart....Concerning that you call yourself a neo-pagan this is nothing new but reformed ancient religion that is nothing more that one accepting and worshipping demons....I do know some of your gods and they like to do me harm more especially Baal.....Their agenda has been to completely destroy me and my faith but MY God is able overpower them through His name, through His Blood, His protecting power.....You have already received the death shroud from your gods so that you cannot see things clearly but as Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead He is able to take the shroud off of you whereby you will be able to see things as THEY REALLY ARE....
I bid you all ado.
Dear “warrior daughter”,
What is interesting is that you are so deceived by your pastors and other false religious teachers that you really believe that you have any sort of power at all and or that your false god has any power at all. That figment of your overactive imagination you call Jesus and you have NO power. If your Christian god was so powerful he’d be able to help make poor Michael’s wife all better. He (Jesus) dose not because he can’t! His wife needs a good medical doctor to help her get well, the sooner the better. Which I very sincerely hope she dose get better soon. I hate to see people suffer needlessly. This is why I have stood to fight the good fight, because to ignore a deadly virus, spiritual or otherwise, simply gives it time to kill more victims. Like a good doctor fights against physical illnesses, I fight against spiritual ones. I fight because I know just how deadly serious this (Christianity) spiritual sickness is!!! I had hoped to help Michael or others if at all possible. Yet it was in vain, the illness has spread far too deep to be cut out of his soul or yours for that matter. None the less, I did attempt it, but the sickness that inhabits you and yours will not accept the light of reason. Sometimes the sick like being sick for the attention it gets them. Michael is right, I am very well versed in the Torah, the New Testament and the Koran, and all three are lies. Monotheism is a lie. Just do yourself a favor and read Porphyry of Tyre’s book (what’s left of it) “Adversus Christianos” which was so damming that the popes had it burned not just once but many times. You might also read Celsus or Flavius Claudius Julianus or Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Nature of the Gods [45 BC]. These would all be very good starting places for anyone who wants to know some REAL truth. You are partly right in that Neo-Paganism is the Re-birth of (“Reformed” as you put it) Paleo-Paganism. However Our Gods and Goddesses are so far above you and your false religion that it is laughable that you imagine that your Jibes and lies are worth their notices. Of course you know nothing about the Majesty of the Gods, for their purity and eternal glory elude such a small creature as yourself and Michael. Like I said before the Gods will not punish you, you deliberately punish yourselves by feeding on impious treachery and lies. I feel bad for you all. You spout words like “DEMONS” and no not what you speak of. “DEAMON” (δαίμων) are supernatural beings between mortals and gods, such as ghosts of dead heroes. Yet your false religion has taken this word and twisted it into what it is not. Of course you would not know that. You muddle your mind in wasted and sickly text’s that dull your ability to desire truth. You do not know anything about Thor or Odin or any of the True Gods! Your lips, with their impiety are not worthy to speak their names. You speak of Baal as if he cares about you, as if he had time to notice what to him, is the equivalent of an ameba. For while Baal, (also known as Hadad: a God of storm’s and fertility) is not a God that I worship, I know that your book of falseness has gone out of its way to slander his name. I assure you madam that if Baal or any other deity ever really decided that you were worth exterminating then all the Bibles and all the prayers in Jesus name with all the churches in the world would be of no use to you, for it would all crumble around you like smoking ash, leaving you too your fate, be very, very glad that Baal has taken no notices of your small voice. I see things as they really are it is you that have “The death shroud” about you. It is your ilk that buys into lying wonders performed by trickster prophets like TB Joshua, with his paid off “sick” (really actors) people that take you for all the money they can gather. They cheat old ladies and deceive the ignorant and uneducated, it far off parts of the world. The Christians always have taken advantage of the illiterate and ignorant, for the likes of Paul could never truly stand against the Educated Pagans of his day when taken to task for his lies. Neither can your modern Christians. You are all just inches away form an ocean of knowledge and yet you flop like beached fish, dying for want of truth. It’s just not right, but you and I, as well as all humans, make a choices to live as we do. I can offer you freedom and knowledge but I can not and would not make you drink forcibly! So now that I have made my peace with all of you and have read Michael’s comments for me I move on to try to help others, who hopefully are willing to drink of life instead of eating death. I am truly so
Sorry for you and the other Christians here to include Michael, for whom I bare no ill will! It is as he said; we must learn to put our time and energy where it will be of the most use. That is not here, no matter how regrettable it may personally be to me. So I bow and take my finial ado, I shall not return again. This is as it ought to be, a clean cut. Farewell,
Adam
“Audiens sapiens sapientior erit et intellegens gubernacula possidebit parabolam et interpretationem verba sapientium et enigmata eorum”!
The stuff of legends
Adam praises his gods, and refers us to some obscure texts that very few people have ever heard of. If these gods are as concerned about humanity as Adam says that he is, surely they would have given some clear proofs of their own glory by now, and left us some reliable ideas about who they are. Adam dismissed stories about Jesus in the New Testament as basically "legends", but they look like historical records to me, and not written in such a way as to flatter the authors either! The writings which speak of the polytheistic pagan gods are legends, and to my knowledge have no serious connection with any known places or historical events. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. So much of the stories in pagan religions are so much like "once upon a time in a land far away ..."
My God IS able to make my wife better and more
This is for the benefit of those reading Adam's last post only, because Adam says he will not be returning to this forum, and Adam is an honorable man.
Our God who made the heavens and earth would have no problems in healing my wife, or every sick person in the world for that matter. If it is a question of power, Yahweh has the power and can do it. "I am the God of all flesh, is there anything too difficult for me".
The Scripture consistently reveals that the LORD God wants his children to learn to overcome the works of the devil. Not being able to do this in our own power, we learn over time the need to draw near to God, receive His strength and power for our needs, and overcome. At times God heals instantly, and at other times, it is a struggle. At times, we have to make lifestyle changes in order to get answers from God. My wife has changed her diet a lot and stopped living on caffeine to push herself to get results.
I encourage everyone to simply draw near to God. Presumably one of Adam's "hard facts" that he has brought to the table is that "It is your ilk that buys into lying wonders performed by trickster prophets like TB Joshua, with his paid off “sick” (really actors) people that take you for all the money they can gather."
Adam knows this, of course, without checking out the facts. Those who go to Africa, like my pastor from the Gold Coast, know otherwise. Its a pretty good "act" when poisons spontaneously and visibly break out of cancer wounds and when cancers fall off, when the dead are raised in the presence of medical doctors. Its a pretty good party trick when flesh on the surface of the body is recreated. You'd have to be pretty clever and rich to pay thousands of people for fake healings without anyone there making such charges. But Adam, the knight in shining armour, who has come to rescue us from our Christian darkness - Adam can see through it all without looking! Amazing!
Oh dear Adam
What a mess that guy is in, spiritually.
If it is true that he spent twenty years in church then the fact that he does not know the one true God is an indication that there is something sadly amiss. Maybe it was a waste of time, for him.
The pagan beliefs he holds to are best summed up by examining the concept of the divine council. The heavenly assembley, created by God to rule over and administer to the day to day lives of mankind.
A warning against pagan idolatry is found in Deut 4:19
"And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
God bless,
Pete
Baal worship
With the recent contributions to the topic of paganism I thought that I would post this description of Baal Worship taken from the French historian, Gustave Flaubert’s work entitled “Salammbo”.
This ceremony is re-enacted in part by world leaders at the Bohemian Grove meetings every year.
It portays the absolute evil nature of the demon-gods and is a shocking read so if easily offended, stop here.
“The arrangements for the sacrifice were already begun.
Part of a wall in the temple of Moloch was thrown down in order to draw
out the brazen god without touching the ashes of the altar. Then as
soon as the sun appeared the hierodules pushed it towards the square of
Khamon.
It moved backwards sliding upon cylinders; its shoulders overlapped the
walls. No sooner did the Carthaginians perceive it in the distance than
they speedily took to flight, for the Baal could be looked upon with
impunity only when exercising his wrath.
A smell of aromatics spread through the streets. All the temples
had just been opened simultaneously, and from them there came forth
tabernacles borne upon chariots, or upon litters carried by the
pontiffs. Great plumes swayed at the corners of them, and rays were
emitted from their slender pinnacles which terminated in balls of
crystal, gold, silver or copper.
These were the Chanaanitish Baalim, offshoots of the supreme Baal, who
were returning to their first cause to humble themselves before his
might and annihilate themselves in his splendour.
Melkarth's pavilion, which was of fine purple, sheltered a petroleum
flare; on Khamon's, which was of hyacinth colour, there rose an ivory
phallus bordered with a circle of gems; between Eschmoun's curtains,
which were as blue as the ether, a sleeping python formed a circle with
his tail, and the Pataec gods, held in the arms of their priests, looked
like great infants in swaddling clothes with their heels touching the
ground.
Then came all the inferior forms of the Divinity: Baal-Samin, god of
celestial space; Baal-Peor, god of the sacred mountains; Baal-Zeboub,
god of corruption, with those of the neighbouring countries and
congenerous races: the Iarbal of Libya, the Adramelech of Chaldaea,
the Kijun of the Syrians; Derceto, with her virgin's face, crept on
her fins, and the corpse of Tammouz was drawn along in the midst of a
catafalque among torches and heads of hair. In order to subdue the kings
of the firmament to the Sun, and prevent their particular influences
from disturbing his, diversely coloured metal stars were brandished
at the end of long poles; and all were there, from the dark Neblo, the
genius of Mercury, to the hideous Rahab, which is the constellation of
the Crocodile. The Abbadirs, stones which had fallen from the moon, were
whirling in slings of silver thread; little loaves, representing the
female form, were born on baskets by the priests of Ceres; others
brought their fetishes and amulets; forgotten idols reappeared, while
the mystic symbols had been taken from the very ships as though Carthage
wished to concentrate herself wholly upon a single thought of death and
desolation.
Before each tabernacle a man balanced a large vase of smoking incense on
his head. Clouds hovered here and there, and the hangings, pendants,
and embroideries of the sacred pavilions might be distinguished amid
the thick vapours. These advanced slowly owing to their enormous weight.
Sometimes the axles became fast in the streets; then the pious took
advantage of the opportunity to touch the Baalim with their garments,
which they preserved afterwards as holy things.
The brazen statue continued to advance towards the square of Khamon. The
rich, carrying sceptres with emerald balls, set out from the bottom
of Megara; the Ancients, with diadems on their heads, had assembled in
Kinisdo, and masters of the finances, governors of provinces, sailors,
and the numerous horde employed at funerals, all with the insignia of
their magistracies or the instruments of their calling, were making
their way towards the tabernacles which were descending from the
Acropolis between the colleges of the pontiffs.
Out of deference to Moloch they had adorned themselves with the most
splendid jewels. Diamonds sparkled on their black garments; but their
rings were too large and fell from their wasted hands,--nor could there
have been anything so mournful as this silent crowd where earrings
tapped against pale faces, and gold tiaras clasped brows contracted with
stern despair.
At last the Baal arrived exactly in the centre of the square. His
pontiffs arranged an enclosure with trellis-work to keep off the
multitude, and remained around him at his feet.
The priests of Khamon, in tawny woollen robes, formed a line before
their temple beneath the columns of the portico; those of Eschmoun, in
linen mantles with necklaces of koukouphas' heads and pointed tiaras,
posted themselves on the steps of the Acropolis; the priests of
Melkarth, in violet tunics, took the western side; the priests of the
Abbadirs, clasped with bands of Phrygian stuffs, placed themselves on
the east, while towards the south, with the necromancers all covered
with tattooings, and the shriekers in patched cloaks, were ranged the
curates of the Pataec gods, and the Yidonim, who put the bone of a dead
man into their mouths to learn the future. The priests of Ceres, who
were dressed in blue robes, had prudently stopped in the street of
Satheb, and in low tones were chanting a thesmophorion in the Megarian
dialect.
From time to time files of men arrived, completely naked, their arms
outstretched, and all holding one another by the shoulders. From
the depths of their breasts they drew forth a hoarse and cavernous
intonation; their eyes, which were fastened upon the colossus, shone
through the dust, and they swayed their bodies simultaneously, and at
equal distances, as though they were all affected by a single movement.
They were so frenzied that to restore order the hierodules compelled
them, with blows of the stick, to lie flat upon the ground, with their
faces resting against the brass trellis-work.
Then it was that a man in a white robe advanced from the back of the
square. He penetrated the crowd slowly, and people recognised a priest
of Tanith--the high-priest Schahabarim. Hootings were raised, for the
tyranny of the male principle prevailed that day in all consciences, and
the goddess was actually so completely forgotten that the absence of her
pontiffs had not been noticed. But the amazement was increased when he
was seen to open one of the doors of the trellis-work intended for
those who intended to offer up victims. It was an outrage to their god,
thought the priests of Moloch, that he had just committed, and they
sought with eager gestures to repel him. Fed on the meat of the
holocausts, clad in purple like kings, and wearing triple-storied
crowns, they despised the pale eunuch, weakened with his macerations,
and angry laughter shook their black beards, which were displayed on
their breasts in the sun.
Schahabarim walked on, giving no reply, and, traversing the whole
enclosure with deliberation, reached the legs of the colossus; then,
spreading out both arms, he touched it on both sides, which was a solemn
form of adoration. For a long time Rabbet had been torturing him, and
in despair, or perhaps for lack of a god that completely satisfied his
ideas, he had at last decided for this one.
The crowd, terrified by this act of apostasy, uttered a lengthened
murmur. It was felt that the last tie which bound their souls to a
merciful divinity was breaking.
But owing to his mutilation, Schahabarim could take no part in the cult
of the Baal. The men in the red cloaks shut him out from the enclosure;
then, when he was outside, he went round all the colleges in succession,
and the priest, henceforth without a god, disappeared into the crowd. It
scattered at his approach.
Meanwhile a fire of aloes, cedar, and laurel was burning between the
legs of the colossus. The tips of its long wings dipped into the flame;
the unguents with which it had been rubbed flowed like sweat over its
brazen limbs. Around the circular flagstone on which its feet rested,
the children, wrapped in black veils, formed a motionless circle; and
its extravagantly long arms reached down their palms to them as though
to seize the crown that they formed and carry it to the sky.
The rich, the Ancients, the women, the whole multitude, thronged behind
the priests and on the terraces of the houses. The large painted stars
revolved no longer; the tabernacles were set upon the ground; and the
fumes from the censers ascended perpendicularly, spreading their bluish
branches through the azure like gigantic trees.
Many fainted; others became inert and petrified in their ecstasy.
Infinite anguish weighed upon the breasts of the beholders. The
last shouts died out one by one,--and the people of Carthage stood
breathless, and absorbed in the longing of their terror.
At last the high priest of Moloch passed his left hand beneath the
children's veils, plucked a lock of hair from their foreheads, and threw
it upon the flames. Then the men in the red cloaks chanted the sacred
hymn:
"Homage to thee, Sun! king of the two zones, self-generating Creator,
Father and Mother, Father and Son, God and Goddess, Goddess and God!"
And their voices were lost in the outburst of instruments sounding
simultaneously to drown the cries of the victims. The eight-stringed
scheminiths, the kinnors which had ten strings, and the nebals which
had twelve, grated, whistled, and thundered. Enormous leathern bags,
bristling with pipes, made a shrill clashing noise; the tabourines,
beaten with all the players' might, resounded with heavy, rapid blows;
and, in spite of the fury of the clarions, the salsalim snapped like
grasshoppers' wings.
The hierodules, with a long hook, opened the seven-storied compartments
on the body of the Baal. They put meal into the highest, two
turtle-doves into the second, an ape into the third, a ram into the
fourth, a sheep into the fifth, and as no ox was to be had for the
sixth, a tawny hide taken from the sanctuary was thrown into it. The
seventh compartment yawned empty still.
Before undertaking anything it was well to make trial of the arms of the
god. Slender chainlets stretched from his fingers up to his shoulders
and fell behind, where men by pulling them made the two hands rise to a
level with the elbows, and come close together against the belly; they
were moved several times in succession with little abrupt jerks. Then
the instruments were still. The fire roared.
The pontiffs of Moloch walked about on the great flagstone scanning the
multitude.
An individual sacrifice was necessary, a perfectly voluntary oblation,
which was considered as carrying the others along with it. But no one
had appeared up to the present, and the seven passages leading from the
barriers to the colossus were completely empty. Then the priests, to
encourage the people, drew bodkins from their girdles and gashed their
faces. The Devotees, who were stretched on the ground outside, were
brought within the enclosure. A bundle of horrible irons was thrown to
them, and each chose his own torture. They drove in spits between their
breasts; they split their cheeks; they put crowns of thorns upon their
heads; then they twined their arms together, and surrounded the children
in another large circle which widened and contracted in turns. They
reached to the balustrade, they threw themselves back again, and then
began once more, attracting the crowd to them by the dizziness of their
motion with its accompanying blood and shrieks.
By degrees people came into the end of the passages; they flung into
the flames pearls, gold vases, cups, torches, all their wealth; the
offerings became constantly more numerous and more splendid. At last a
man who tottered, a man pale and hideous with terror, thrust forward
a child; then a little black mass was seen between the hands of the
colossus, and sank into the dark opening. The priests bent over the edge
of the great flagstone,--and a new song burst forth celebrating the joys
of death and of new birth into eternity.
The children ascended slowly, and as the smoke formed lofty eddies as
it escaped, they seemed at a distance to disappear in a cloud. Not
one stirred. Their wrists and ankles were tied, and the dark drapery
prevented them from seeing anything and from being recognised.
Hamilcar, in a red cloak, like the priests of Moloch, was beside the
Baal, standing upright in front of the great toe of its right foot. When
the fourteenth child was brought every one could see him make a great
gesture of horror. But he soon resumed his former attitude, folded his
arms, and looked upon the ground. The high pontiff stood on the other
side of the statue as motionless as he. His head, laden with an Assyrian
mitre, was bent, and he was watching the gold plate on his breast; it
was covered with fatidical stones, and the flame mirrored in it formed
irisated lights. He grew pale and dismayed. Hamilcar bent his brow; and
they were both so near the funeral-pile that the hems of their cloaks
brushed it as they rose from time to time.
The brazen arms were working more quickly. They paused no longer. Every
time that a child was placed in them the priests of Moloch spread
out their hands upon him to burden him with the crimes of the people,
vociferating: "They are not men but oxen!" and the multitude round
about repeated: "Oxen! oxen!" The devout exclaimed: "Lord! eat!" and
the priests of Proserpine, complying through terror with the needs of
Carthage, muttered the Eleusinian formula: "Pour out rain! bring forth!"
The victims, when scarcely at the edge of the opening, disappeared like
a drop of water on a red-hot plate, and white smoke rose amid the great
scarlet colour.
Nevertheless, the appetite of the god was not appeased. He ever wished
for more. In order to furnish him with a larger supply, the victims were
piled up on his hands with a big chain above them which kept them in
their place. Some devout persons had at the beginning wished to count
them, to see whether their number corresponded with the days of
the solar year; but others were brought, and it was impossible to
distinguish them in the giddy motion of the horrible arms. This lasted
for a long, indefinite time until the evening. Then the partitions
inside assumed a darker glow, and burning flesh could be seen. Some even
believed that they could descry hair, limbs, and whole bodies.
Night fell; clouds accumulated above the Baal. The funeral-pile, which
was flameless now, formed a pyramid of coals up to his knees; completely
red like a giant covered with blood, he looked, with his head
thrown back, as though he were staggering beneath the weight of his
intoxication.
In proportion as the priests made haste, the frenzy of the people
increased; as the number of the victims was diminishing, some cried
out to spare them, others that still more were needful. The walls, with
their burden of people, seemed to be giving way beneath the howlings
of terror and mystic voluptuousness. Then the faithful came into the
passages, dragging their children, who clung to them; and they beat them
in order to make them let go, and handed them over to the men in red.
The instrument-players sometimes stopped through exhaustion; then the
cries of the mothers might be heard, and the frizzling of the fat as it
fell upon the coals. The henbane-drinkers crawled on all fours around
the colossus, roaring like tigers; the Yidonim vaticinated, the Devotees
sang with their cloven lips; the trellis-work had been broken through,
all wished for a share in the sacrifice;--and fathers, whose children
had died previously, cast their effigies, their playthings, their
preserved bones into the fire. Some who had knives rushed upon the rest.
They slaughtered one another. The hierodules took the fallen ashes at
the edge of the flagstone in bronze fans, and cast them into the air
that the sacrifice might be scattered over the town and even to the
region of the stars.
The loud noise and great light had attracted the Barbarians to the foot
of the walls; they clung to the wreck of the helepolis to have a better
view, and gazed open-mouthed in horror."
What an apsolutely evil scene is portayed here.
We are to reject such pagan idolatory. Turn to God and worship at the feet of the Lord of Lords.
Halellujah.
God Bless
Pete
Not all churches are dead rotting corpses
Adam, you raise so many points and each of them could lead to some in-depth discussions. I will try to make a start. Please bear with me as I have a lot on my plate right now, with starting a new business and some family members needing a lot of care. I may not be able to address all the important questions you raise in depth.
Although many visible churches are dead, there are also thousands of churches that are alive. There are even some that are absolutely full of the life of Jesus. Churches where the miracles of Jesus are happening on a daily basis, with about the same order of power as what is recorded in the gospels. Do a google search on "T.B. Joshua" for plenty of video and other evidence. This man of God also demonstrates a lot of compassion for the poor, the widows, the orphans, the sick and suffering. He gives them money. At times he has not even had his own bank account. The church I go to is full of love and the presence of God. They helped my family once in a very loving practical way when we were recently in great suffering. To a greater or lesser extent, we have a communion with the Holy Spirit that makes our lives fulfilled.
I meet sincere Christians everywhere if I look for them, people who have been changed by God's love and can point to proof of God's power in their lives.
So its not true generally that churches are dead rotting corpses. Sadly, some have fallen away from the true faith and made compromises with godless, worldly influences and they cannot offer God's life any more. But not all are like this.
Michael,I understand ...
Michael,
I understand that I did raise a lot of point in counter to your article and I further understand it may take you some time to get to them all. I can wait. I think that you may have some insightful ideas even if we disagree on them or agree only in part. I wish you well in your new business venture and I’ll ask the Gods to give you strength as you care for your family members. I hope that they are not too ill or if they are that they will recover soon.
While there are no doubt some truly kind and caring people within the Christian faith, it appears to be the exception instead of the rule.I am thankful for every human being that is kind and giving. If there were more people like this, our lives on earth would be a bit better off then they are. Yet many of the preachers and even the “common” Christian do these sorts of things for show. They want the whole community to look at them and their “Good deeds” and bless them for it. It’s for the publicity and not out of kindness or concern. Of course the people who receive help form such as these are not apt to complain…they are after all having a pressing need meet. T.B. Joshua also appears to be such a person. After looking at his site I clicked one link down and found this:
“There has been a lot of talk about T.B. Joshua from Nigeria lately. I have written to him asking for two items: (1) a copy of his doctrinal statement and (2) independent HIV tests from BEFORE those he claims he has healed were allegedly healed proving they had AIDS to begin with. On his The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations web site he makes claims of AIDS healings but provides only testimonials and pictures of people holding up what are supposed to be HIV tests taken, in some cases, before and after the fact. Most people will readily realize that testimonials and HIV tests shown in photographs do not constitute proof. HIV tests from before their visit to The Synagogue should be provided independently of The Synagogue to verify any alleged healings. That spectacular things are being seen at his church and on video seem to be without doubt. But let's not forget that many of the "miracles" we see could also be faked. If these are indeed true miracles, we still need to investigate the source. It is important to remember that Satan is capable of both healing (Rev. 13:14) and making people sick (Job 2:7). I have suspected for a long time that occult healings can sometimes be the result of the enemy lifting sickness or disease that was a result of his inflicting sickness and disease in the first place. Why would he do that? Simply to prop up his false prophets and false healers and to deceive people! We also need to be aware of the fact that a house swept clean without true repentance and belief in Jesus Christ is a house that is open to further demonic episodes (Matt. 12:43-45). That's why it's always important to check back on those who claim to be healed and see if they are still healed at a later date. But, most importantly, it's imperative to test the spirits, judge and compare the doctrinal teachings and beliefs presented by T.B. Joshua with the Word of God. On that basis alone you will discover that this man is teaching heresy -- laying error alongside truth. Christians should avoid any man who is using occult techniques in the name of Jesus Christ. I will now comment on questions and answers given by T.B Joshua in a book called Pastor W.F. Kumuyi and Prophet T.B. Joshua: Are both messengers of God? by Isaac B. Agbaje and Abieye Kalu. His quotes are very enlightening and should be enough for any true believer to stay far away from this modern day shaman who mixes Christianity with paganism in a very enticing manner.”
I found this site at the URL of http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/tbjoshua.html.
His Website, like him is flashy, full of show for the masses…he might make a good actor, so it seems that he (T.B. Joshua) is not even trusted among Christians. My, my, The Gods do work in mysterious ways! I am not condemning all Christians across the board, just the ones who show just how smug and self righteous they are. I suppose I agree with the Bible when it says ’“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
That is something for people to think deeply on. So while I can not say anything for or against the Church you attend, because I am not there and I have not met them.It seems clear what Mr. T.B. Joshua is all about. Just another Bennie hinn (I may have misspelled his name, I apologize if so.) full of show and most likely faked power. Thus is seems to me that my original comment stands on “Terra firma” (firm ground), most churches are dead rotting corpses.Because I have not seen one thing that shows me otherwise.
Adam.
Criticism of T.B. Joshua
Adam,
When I lived on the Gold Coast, my pastor actually travelled to Nigeria and saw with his own eyes what was going on. This pastor was and is no fool. The number of genuine miracles is undeniable. They don't show a tiny fraction of it on their website or TV programmes.
My own parents who are not charismatics in theology have had undeniable confirmation of this man's accuracy.
Some of my own close personal friends have dealt with T.B. Joshua when he came to Sydney. Even when leaving for the airport, he did not come out of the house until it was, naturally speaking, too late to catch the plane. No one knew it at the time, but the plane was delayed several hours, so there was no problem.
The writer at deceptioninthechurch can't seem to say a good thing about anyone who believes in the present day operation of the Holy Spirit's gifts. You can ally with such people if you want to in these matters, they are conservative evangelicals, but it doesn't mean that either of you are judging matters rightly here.
It is my experience that whenever someone rises up in the power of Jesus Christ and does anything notably different, that every religious demon from every source seems to rise up and go on the attack. Including religious demons in Christians.
Jesus taught that his true followers would be called evil, since He Himself was. "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more then the members of his house".
If you want the truth you are going to have to look beyond the cheap criticism that comes from people whose main ministries are in front of computer monitors. Like it or not, certain conservative evangelicals still have to deal with Scriptures like:
"Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also." (John 14:12)
If I am going to trust the words of Jesus, its best if I don't pick and choose which ones should be applicable to me, based on my limited experience.
God doesn't feel obligated to reveal the truth to those who don't have a heart for it, be they Christians or not. Please take note.
As for Benny Hinn, God IS doing some miracles in his meetings, but VERY FEW in comparison with the number of sick people who go there looking for help. There is a big difference. Perhaps .1% of the people who attend his meetings are genuinely healed of something.
Benny Hinn IS a showman, I personally don't care for his style, but there is still some value in what he preaches, and I will leave it to God to give final judgment. I don't like some of his fundraising techniques, but I have to choose my battles and its not something I will major on at this time.
Remember that the critics of Jesus could not deny that miracles were happening, so they wanted to say it was by the power of the devil that it was going on. So with some of our modern day Pharisees and Sadducees. For them, only the devil can do mighty signs and wonders today.
pagan gods ARE demons
Anonymous, this is not going to cut it. Hear what the apostle Paul who predated Constantine by almost 3 centuries had to say:
1Co 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Idols are representations of false gods.
1Co 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?
1Co 10:20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
1Co 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
1Co 10:22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
You say there are no evil or dark gods. I say that all of these gods point people AWAY from the only True Savior, Jesus Christ - and therefore - THEY ARE EVIL. Believing these gods will send you to hell, because they always deny our need for God's forgiveness and the importance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus to take away our guilt and curse.
Even in the Old Testament the pagan gods such as Baal were leading God's people astray at times. Nothing could be more evil than to take people away from the Author of Eternal Life.
How can you be sure that your "gods" are not deceiving you?
Actually we can be sure since all Christianity did during the days of Constantine the Great was take the Pagan gods and labeled them as the devil and his devils to get people to convert. Besides the gods would not be deceptive at all since there are no evil gods or even dark gods.