Paganism
I understand that paganism is a growing religious force in the world today. Also, there are quite a number of forms of paganism - Druidism, Wicca, Witchcraft just to name a few. Perhaps you feel that your rituals and other spiritual activities will help to save the Earth from self-destruction. You may distrust Christianity for quite a few reasons. You can't stand the doctrine of eternal punishment, and you probably feel that most Monotheistic religions, especially Christianity, are a hindrance to spiritual development.
Most pagans are polytheists (they acknowledge and worship more than one god or goddess). You probably believe that these divine powers are within you and you need to get into harmony with them. You may be a Nature-Worshipper of some form.
Some Preliminaries
1. Points we may have in common.
a. We believe in the reality of a spiritual world that exists now in parallel with the physical universe. Many churches are spiritually dead - emphasizing "club rules" and not a personal encounter with the divine. But more and more churches are coming alive and are learning what it means to have a relationship with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has greater power than all the rest of the angels and demons combined.
b. We believe that it is good for us to care for our environment. As a Christian, I believe that God gave us this world to look after and enjoy, but not to abuse. So I would sympathise with attempts to limit ecological destruction and the spread of pollution. In my view it is sinful to ruin the environment for personal or corporate profit. The Bible talks of God "destroying those who destroy the earth" (Rev. 11:18).
But the very fact that we have potential to harm Nature proves to me that Nature itself is not divine. A deity which can be destroyed is not worth worshipping. Christians see the beautiful things in Nature as part of the "created order". Just as a beautiful musical piece points to the existence of a gifted and creative composer, so Nature points us to am infinitely wise, good and caring Creator.
The basic error is to "worship that which is created instead of the Creator". Which is better - the work of art or the artist, the book or the author, the created or the Creator? To worship that which is created is to be truly out of harmony with the Creator and that which is truly enduring and eternal.
Our God has been answering prayers and doing wonders since the world began. Whether you like it or not, there is nothing you can do to directly harm Him. Surely one day you will stand before Almighty God and give an account for your life, even including your secret thoughts. What will you say then?
c. I believe that Christians should not seek political power in order to persecute those with other beliefs. As this has been done by the Historical Church over the years, all I can say is I'm sorry and hope not to be a part of such a thing. As Christians we DO have our standards of beliefs and ethics, but hopefully Christians will realise that the weapons with which we attack deception and evil are primarily spiritual. Our swords are made of words, not metal.
A truly wise Christian does not get involved in "witch hunts". "He who searches for evil, it will surely come to him." A lot of innocent people have been killed, especially by the apostate Roman Catholic Church during the middle ages. It was not only witches, but also many innocent people AND many born-again evangelical believers that were tortured and put to death by the Inquisition.
Of course a Christian who knows the Bible rejects many of the fundamental tenets of paganism. We believe though that these tenets must be demonstrated to be wrong. Our God is greater than all of your gods put together. And of course, our Ultimate Victory will be when Jesus Christ returns as King and Judge. Until then the Kingdom of God will only manifest in part, mostly where it is welcomed and embraced. We will continue in prayer and fasting, Christian meditation and acts of truth and mercy so that more and more may taste of the goodness of God personally before it is too late.
As for the spiritual harm that some pagans do through witchcraft and magical arts, God is well able to deal with that and return any curses back to the sender. We will pray on for you that you will have a revelation of God's love and truth before it is too late.
WHAT ARE SOME PAGAN BELIEFS?
Pagans reject the Judaeo-Christian God of the Bible for alternative gods and goddesses. I'm not sure what the reason is for this in most case. Many if not most pagans do not believe in the existence of Satan, or the devil. For example, I get mail on a fairly regular basis from Wiccans who assure me that they do not worship Satan or the devil. You can read some of it here.
Read messages from Wiccans who have read this page and responded.
To give a full report of the many and varied beliefs in various pagan systems is outside the scope of this website. I realise that some of the comments I make may be applicable to some pagans, but not others. I have found, even from reading the mail sent to me by many, that there are conflicting claims about what it means to be a witch and who has the right to be called such, and so on.
Some pagans just find our God unreasonable and his interdictions against witchcraft cruel and narrow-minded. Others feel that our God might be OK as long as He makes us happy on our path, and leaves them on theirs. Others would strongly contend that He doesn't exist.
To the first group, I say, the truth is not a matter of personal preference, and there may be good reasons for God to forbid witchcraft - but you don't know those reasons and refuse to trust the God who said those things against witchcraft. But, if our God exists (and there is abundant evidence that He really does), your personal preference for rebellion against Him won't be respected as a valid objection to His rule, on the Last Day of judgment. Be sure of that. Its pretty arrogant really to suppose that your opinion would be wiser than that of Almighty God who made heaven and earth, and knows all things.
To the second group, who feel that our God might be OK as long as He makes us feel good and leaves you alone, I say this: if our God, the God of the Bible, actually exists, He will not "leave you alone" but you shall surely come and give an account of your life to Him. As for us, we will pray for your salvation and we are willing to share what we believe and what we have experienced, as well as the message we treasure concerning our Lord Jesus Christ. We won't FORCE you to believe anything - we don't have that power anyway, but we will try to be PERSUASIVE, so that, by all means, a few more might be saved from the wrath to come.
To the third group, I say: if you have any reason for believing in the existence of your own gods and goddesses, we have more reasons to believe in our God. For how many hundreds of thousands have experienced the miraculous power in the name of Jesus Christ, have had their lives changed, as well as their intellects challenged by the evidence which is there for all who refuse to be ignorant concerning these things. My testimonies pages contains just a few hundred examples - this is just a drop in the bucket. Greatest of all miracles is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. You need to come to terms with that historical event and only then choose your religion.
PROBLEMS WITH PAGAN BELIEFS
1. How can you be sure that your "gods" are not deceiving you?
That there are spiritual forces behind the various gods of men no informed Christian would deny. But how can you be sure that these spirits are who they say they are? If they make you feel good at times when worshiping them does that make those spirits good? Even Satanists "feel good" when they perform the most horrible things. An evil spirit has the power to give a buzz, a thrill, a surge of power or whatever. They have a limited power to give people what they want also - be it fame, fortune or power. However, all those things are only temporal and will pass away forever.
If you are communicating with spirits by whatever means, let me ask you: Has your spirit always told you the truth? Did it work out always the way the spirit said it would? Has it ever seemed to you that the spirit was somehow mocking you? If so, all this should be a clue as to the deceptive nature of the spirits with which you have entered into contact.
Just because you can't see the God or the devil doesn't mean they can't see you. Just because you don't believe in their existence doesn't mean you can't deal with them, and they can't deal with you. Remember the ostrich, which puts its head in the sand. The ostrich thinks, because he can't see you, you can't see him!
I say that if your spirits deny that Jesus Christ of Nazareth came in the flesh and is now Lord and God that they are LIARS. Those spirits have come to seduce, enslave and destroy you (its a progressive action). For God's sake wake up! If those spirits ARE in fact deceptive then you are in BIG TROUBLE. Upon death you will be taken by the Satan you may or may not believe in. Not to some kind of spiritual paradise - but rather, to everlasting shame, torment and mockery. Satan will laugh in your face in hell one day if you worship false gods of any kind, because he stands behind them all.
Please consider that God loves you. He has given you a choice. He has provided a Savior - Jesus Christ, who became a SACRIFICE FOR YOU - so that you could be made clean, pure and righteous by God and ready to enter into the joy of the Creator forever. Jesus loved you that much. You will find in truly knowing Him the most loving, awesome, faithful, true and powerful person you could ever imagine. He is able to change your life and give you total spiritual fulfilment.
Jesus promised to give rest for the souls of those who serve him. Not more burdensome rituals, but a river of life! It would be a wonderful thing for you to experience the blessing of knowing Him for yourself.
Be at least a little bit willing to consider the evidence for the Good News of Jesus Christ and the message of the Bible. There have been many abuses, since Satan has also been at work inside the church - not only outside. But if you seek for God with all of your heart He will be found by you.
Perhaps it is not too late for you to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Why not check out some of the testimonies on this and other sites.
If you want to communicate over the internet, send me an e-mail. I want to pray for all who write to me, and God-willing and time-permitting, I would like to write back. I will try to make time.
You might like to read some related ideas in my special short message to New-Agers. Also of interest may be this article on reincarnation.
We encourage you to visit our new Christian discussion forum, as not every page can be commented on. So please, share your wisdom, share your testimonies, share your understanding. You can register for the new forum here and register for general comments to the pages on this drupal site here. Due to the lack of programming time, we have different registrations for different parts of the site.
Comments
Interesting
I Found this article interesting and enlightening, It is easy to tell that the author knows their belief system, and how they want to lead their life.
I am a Druid, I will not get into the whole, "yes, my beliefs say this and done this, but look at what yours have done thing.
But the only thing that really stuck me when reading this article in a negative fashion, is the assumptions made of Pagans from a teaching that appears to be taught by a Christian scholar, and not a Pagan scholar. So please allow me to make some basic points, not all just a few.
1. Most Pagans see the earth as Divine, and we try to protect it, but in no time are we actually hurting the earth. The earth was here before man and will be here after man. We see the earth as more of a bringer or sustainer of life and by "protecting the earth" we are protecting our existence on earth.
2. The reason you get so many messages from Pagans about worshiping Satan is because Pagans have never worship Satan, Satan does not exist for us, as Hell does not exist for us. But it is very normal for Wiccans to be associated with the "Witchcraft that is show in movies, fairy tales, etc. of casting evil spells, of worshiping Satan, yada yada yada" And they don't like it because that "kind of Witch" is based on Christianity, not Paganism. The Muslim, Judiasm and Christianity belief system brought the world Satan. Pagans pretty much look at anyone that worships Satan as Christian, and don't group us with that bad part of your belief system. When the Christian belief system took over Western Europe, The Americas, etc. before that if you would have said Satan, or Satan by any other name, you would have gotten a "What? Who? What are you talking about?" A good test would be: Before looking it up, what does the Pentagram mean or stand for? Now look up what it means to a Pagan. Odds are it will surprise you.
3. It would surprise you how many Pagans believe in a "One True God" and our other gods are "Demi-Gods" or what you might call Angles or Saints, some are harsh (such as a war god) most are not (That is a very very simplified explanation).
I really appreciate what you wrote and I do appreciate your efforts that you are putting forth for me. I believe that your efforts are honest and good. I think what you are doing with your time and energy are positive, maybe just put a little more research next time. But in the long run, I think: I will always be a Pagan, you will always be a Christian and there you go.
I will close with a joke, you probably won't appreciate it, but just about all non-christian readers will, I know all my Pagan friends will:
I die and go to "Heaven" and meet "Saint Peter" and I see a huge wall, and I ask Saint Peter. What is that wall for? And Saint Peter says "shhhhhh,,,, those are the Christians and they think they are the only ones up here".
Thanks for letting me rattle, Keep up the Good Work!
Oy
This time of year salvation
This time of year salvation is so important and for people to be going to church and praying i was in italy once during the holidays visiting my sister who was going to school there and it was just so amazing to visit that area.
Bible Quizzes - Anyone ?
Well Saints ,
Check out this site.
It is got some great Bible quizzes , book / chapter wise ,......
Helps to brush up one's knowledge of the Bible.
http://doinggood.org/BibleQuizzes.asp
Not for professional preachers and those in full time ministry though !!!
Seems most of you are busy , ......preparing for the Big Bash on the 25th. ;-)
Cheers
Vikki
I agree God loves you
And the Goddess does too.
Together, they are the ONE, all knowing, all loving, all creative force of All That Is. You can't have a God without the Goddess! It does not make sense! Yes, I DO believe in God. And Yes, I DO believe in Goddess. I believe in the ONE true Divine.
And the True Divine looks nothing like a hell fire/brimstone belching patriarch.
another comment to whom it may concern
To all religions to whom it appeals to. Christians. Your ever lasting love fills my heart with happiness. Wiccans/pagans, Your connection with nature is behond spiritual. Both of you hold an uncanny amount of faith to different things wether you were born one, or converted. My point is, you chose your beliefs. and doing so, you are happy. but along with that belief comes a title. wether it is accepted or not, that is your battle. mine, I once called myself Christian, and I once called myself Wiccan. but as I type the words from my heart. no title can restrain my beliefs. I use the word 'We', I used it in general to all. I have written two comments on the subject, one, was my unsationable desire for answers. so, I declared myself christian. another, for my love for all, so I declared myself Wiccan. See? more titles. I feel I should need no titles. and I do not yearn to convert to any. Be you christian, atheist or Wiccan/pagan. that is your choice. mine, is to come to this site in a neutral manner. to learn and aknowlage. You have told me god and Jesus loves me. well if they truly do, I thank them, but I am also aware others love me to. and a compliment to the smart mind of lookinforacity, who saw through my smoke and mirrors. compliments to those who think with their heart along with their mind. peace to all. I eagerly await to what you have to say. (But don't call me confused. I know exactly where my spirituality lies and what I am doing
Peace to all.-- Stacy
the faith in all
Christians and Wiccans/Pagans, Lend me your ear ( Or eyes since you cant really hear me over the internet =D) Does it really matter what we believe in? Should we really discriminate due to those we worship? In BOTH beliefs of Christians and wiccans/pagans, state that we are all brothers and sisters in an odd way. (Obviously not physically because that would be something akward to Know about your lover). Anyway, it shouldn't matter what we believe in, as long as we have something to have faith IN.
For example, atheists believe in science. Christians belive in god and christ. muslims believe in allah, and wiccans/Pagans believe in one, or multiple god/goddess. I'm sensing a connection here, the act of belief. Those who believe in Jahova, are no different from those who believe in the goddess or Zeus. Why? Because we both believe that they exist. I feel that in our ever changing world, we have been sadly thrown into confusion, and distrust. The only thing we can trust, or be sure about. is our religions. If we lose this, What will we have then? This question I cannot answer, can you?
To conclude my statement. I will not tell all of you my religion. because to me, it doesn't matter. to me, all that matters is we're all humans. And since we aren't dimwitted beasts. Humans should get along.
Re: Faith in All
Hi Stacy,
We all have a need to believe in someone higher than ourselves. Why? Because we were created by someone greater than ourselves. The Bible tells us that someone has "set eternity in their hearts." Whoever created us has placed an innate desire to seek Him.
Now, if the God of the Bible is our Creator, and its account is clear that all the other gods are not able to save, should he have a right to be upset at our stubborn refusal to accept Him for who He is? It is also natural that the counterfeit gods should proclaim a message of "it doesn't matter, we are all equal spirits," since they being nothing in comparison to God, have no loss of reputation, only the gaining of stature.
"The act of belief" as you succinctly call it, is a proof of One who desires us to believe. There is only one Creator, in three persons. "And God said, 'let US make man in OUR image." One God, with a plurality only found in the Godhead of the Bible. "the 'act of belief'" is the spiritual homing signal God has placed in our hearts. Only as we read the Bible and pray to the God of the Bible, does our heart find significance.
The fact you are able to espouse any number of beliefs as equal, demonstrates you have not come upon the true God. Having been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, I have had my sins washed away. Do you know how wonderful it feels to have the burden of all past sin washed away... not stuffed or redefined or papered over with a shallow belief system of my own choosing?
I cannot answer those questions for you. But I am sharing my own experience, not to mention the supernatural healing in my home. You can read Our Story and read about what the Lord Jesus Christ did for us... even how he audilbly spoke to my wife on two occasions a year apart ... first at the beginning and lastly at the end of her being healed of the incurable that our involvement in eastern religious practice had made much worse.
Stacy, I love your heart. I know you are trying to make sense out of the spirit world and not be judgmental. Some Christians have an edge about their 'need to defend' Jesus. He has not called us to defend Him. "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants, fight."
I pray you would be able to receive these words with the gentleness with which they are written. You have been hurt and wounded enough in this life, I am sure. Jesus came and heals the broken hearted. I pray you may find the peace your heart is longing for in Him.
Sincerely,
Tim
RE the faith in all
Stacy
you say:
"I will not tell all of you my religion."
At this point Stacy I think I should tell you, that the best way to keep your secret, would be by PROOF READING your posts.
then you say:
"Those who believe in Jahova, are no different from those who believe in the goddess or Zeus. Why?" "(((Because "WE" both believe that they exist.)))"
Busted you little wicken/pagen you. Matt.12:34 Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Remember GOD LOVES YOU anyway! :>)
JIM
No man can serve two masters- the christian and pagan
The problem is that wars of great magnitude have been fought between those of opposing faiths. You cannot honestly ignore the fact that the Christians of ancient times, even the Jews believed deeply enough in their religion to die for it, to resist the leadership of nations, and whether by active or passive resistance live what they believed in. I was saddened because despite the fact our country was founded upon Judea o-Christian foundations- our nation is spirally into what may be its last days of power and a great nation.
From a Christian viewpoint, we have failed to stick with our original beliefs and principles and as Paul wrote to the churches of Asia we have allowed all manner of that which we once as a faith would have not allowed to exist- to emerge, flower, and is now bringing our countries to its knees.
All of this 'freedom' is not without a price. As Christians we are not free to live life however we choose and there can never be any true peace between what is good and what is evil.
The essence of evil is selfishness, groups of people just socializing, and using 'caring about the earth' as a way to form a social group which is destroying the very basis of the family, or deeply moral foundations, and our country.
Know this. There can only be one God. We have weathered people worshiping stone and trees and sacrificing children to ancient gods for tens of thousands of years. It has gotten so the "new religions" aren't even religions.
A man died 2,000 years ago to save us. And a God gave his son to bring us eternal life. There is no argument. It happened. No one can make anyone believe in God. No one can make you know that miracles exist and that in truth we are so close to the End of Days and the plague is less than 2 months off which may kill millions and make many nations fall.
They stoned the prophets. And it is so deceiving to cloak the elements of Pagan worship that has destroyed nation after nation in history. To watch as people become asexual, families fall apart as mothers become fathers, and as prophesied there is a loss of natural affection and compassion.
Do what thou wilt is not the whole of any law. It is the words of a cocaine frenzied lunatic finding followers by writing book after book of almost insane gibberish.
How many pagans would give their life to save the world? Not the trees and bushes, the people?
As God has said, because you were neither cold nor warm I will spew you out my mouth. You will live to see your nation collapse and truly disease will be rampant, violence, and the world as you know it will end.
There was a reason for the angels who came to Sodom and Gomorrah- and there was a reason they could not find a dozen righteous people in the city.
I love all people. Yet I think they are led astray by wanting to be loved and being part of a group and there are only two commandments. Love God with all your heart and soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.
The freedom has resulted in a permissive and immoral society which is destroying itself. True Christians are few. None wants to stand and be counted for their faith. We need not kill- but we must recognize that which is not of God. God did not intend for you to worship his creation, he intended for you to worship him. To dedicate lives to helping others who are suffering.
There is no communion with light and darkness. I have lost my son to the Pagans. I ask my Christian brothers and sisters to pray that somehow that god will send legions of angels and helpers to save that one pure light of innocence.
Know this. Either there is or their is not a God such as christians belief in. If there is- you will see the day of Wrath and Maranatha-
This is no game. There are immortal souls to be won or lost. Many will be called to give their lives for their faith. Few will do so.
It is not cute, or crafty or purest and go back to nature. We have forgotten the God who made us. He is no whispy make your own thing- he is a living person- almighty-all powerful- and the creator of all that is.
This is the essence of Christianity. Jesus were he here in body would go not only into the gatherings of the Pagans but into the corrupted body of Christ and he would weep.
Know this by what is to come- there is only one God- as Pharoah was forced to acknowledge- and no man or woman can serve two masters.
I will not worship stones and trees. They are are only his refleciton. I will worship and praise and reverence the Father.. the one true living God.
Maranatha
Hello everyone, I am Osiel
Hello everyone, I am Osiel Araim, and I feel I have an obligation to defend both religious parties involved in this argument. I have been a self-proclaimed member of just about every religion known to most of mankind- even obscure ones, such as Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Luciferianism. Each of the religions I have 'joined' were all researched by myself, and I had reasons to join them. But they were all religions. Dare I say, even Wicca, Witchcraft, AND Paganism were religions- and yes, they are all different.
Now, we have to define religion. Religion, as a word, has been used (even by Christians) as a derogatory term. Religion, in my mind and the mind of many, talks about a dead and inflexible way of worship. And, yes- Christianity is very flexible, even for the most faithful of its follwers. It just depends on in what the flexibility is based.
When I was a Christian, I went to a demonstration on Passover. It's main focus was on how Passover is a dead phenomenon, as it is no longer practiced in its original method or intent. Passover /needs/ the lamb to be Passover- the lamb is central to it. Passover requires many other things to be 'authentic', such as being in the Holy Land.
Now, I must say that both my Pagan AND my Christian experiences were experiences in religion. Casting a circle. That is a /very/ religious phenomenon- and I do not believe, myself, that it is spiritual. If the spirits you were evoking were not malevolent, why cast a protective circle?
However, within Christianity, there are also 'religion-based' experiences. Even within Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches- the most Bible-based Christian format I have ever been exposed to. One of these 'religion-based' experiences is, actually, Christmas- at least as experienced in America and some of Europe. The earliest English records of Christmas Day being the 25th of December come from the year 1043. It is a holiday of vast excess through feasts and gifts- both possibly contrary to the original spirit of 'Christmas' and the original spirit of Christianity. Finally- Christmas is no longer celebrated on 'true' December 25th! There was a Calendar Act passed in 1751 in England which made the day after September 2nd into Septemter 14th! Before this, Christmas was celebrated on what is now January 6th! This is the very definition of a 'religion-based' holiday!
So, I believe we have established that both religions have their faults, and that neither (as Paganism was practically reinvented in the Renaissance) is true to its original spirit in at least some ways. What I must establish, now, is that neither religion gives me a full peace of heart; none makes me happy. I have been Pagan for a few years, now, and all my friends are Pagan. Even my fiancee is Pagan. And- four of my family members died, all in 2007... None of them were Christian. I had tried Christianity, earnestly, for a few months... And- things were getting better. But- my fiancee is Pagan, and I have a few problems with Christianity... My main problems are that interpretation is not allowed, but interpretation is the only way for the human mind to understand letters and words and books, or anything for that matter, and that the main thing in your heart has to be God- only God. What about your wife? Your children?
I guess I would love to be Christian... But I am choosing the easier path, because I can't break my fiancee's heart. It's just- so hard, and I don't know what to do. I... I'm broken; I'm depressed; I'm conflicted. And I've always been that way. Ever since I started school, I was angry and violent, as well as depressed. When I was a bit older, I got clinically depressed. I am on meds, daily. I've had physical fights with many of my relatives- and many times. I am, truly, f-cked up (sorry for cursing, but I am getting very emotional). I... Wish I had some answers. But- I know I don't. I never have. I.. I need help.
osiel
greetings in jesus name.i just read what you had to say.i want you to no,i am praying for you my,friend.i, want you to no,jesus loves you,while we were yet sinners jesus died for us.i no were you are coming from.jesus can set you free,osiel.we all need one another,we need to pray,and upleft one another.we need to encourage,reach out with the arm of faith,in love to people like you.jesus is the way,the truth and the life,no man comes to the father any other way.i will pray for you,and i point you to the king of kings and lord of lords,who is able to meet your every need.jesus is able,amen.cast all your care on him,for jesus cares for you,osiel.dear lord jesus,i want to pray for my friend,osiel.speak to his heart,threw your holy spirit.help him lord jesus,i pray,i ask this in your wonderful name,amen.god bless you,osiel.let us no how you are doing.all the best.stevehenry
Reply to Osiel
Osiel
I don't want to debate religions with you. I just want to say I was touched by your conflict of wanting to believe in Christianity and your reasons for not being ablt to do so.
I just want to pray for you at this point. I will go way and think about what you posted and if I have something else I could add here I will come back and do so.
Dear Heavenly Father,
Praying for Osiel and his family and fiance. Praying for your revelation of your truth to them so that they will have beyond doubt what they need to be able to receive salvation through your precious Son's Blood shed for them. Praying that you would bring more insight and understanding to Osiel of your Truth of your Word which is given to us in the Bible. Thank you Lord that you say in your Word that "those who seek you will find you when they seek you with all their heart". Amen
I'm just going to give you some scripture for you to think through. I hope it may help you in some way.
MT 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
MT 7:9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
MT 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
If you ask God for the ability to clearly know his truth and be able to believe it he will give you what you ask for.
Cheers
Mel
Thank you for your kindness
Hello, my name is Stacy. And I'd like to tell you I am very shocked (In a good way). Before I say more, I'd like to tell you I am indeed wiccan, and I saw your comment on a site and had to write to you to inform you that you are one of the nicest christians I have ever met. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are aware of other peoples beliefs and yet you are neutral about it. You voice your oppinion, but in a friendly manner. Most people of the christian ways, would get in your face and demand you convert. Or say real nasty things about us. When I read your comment, I felt as though you were talking directly to me. So in my own kindess, I'll accept your prayers even though they are to a different religion other than mine. For the power of faith thrives in all. Christian or not. I shall pray for you as well. Because a simple act of kindness can go a long way. I hope I guessed your personallity right, and if I didn't, well you don't have to reply. I'd like to finally add, that even though I am indeed wiccan, I enjoy hearing about other religions. so, could you answer some of my questions about the bible, and christianity? (I've never read the bible).
I eagerly await your reply - Stacy
Hello. :) I have a question
Hello. :) I have a question to ask/a statement to share after reading your post on Paganism.
First off, I'd like to go ahead and say that I am Pagan. A polytheistic Pagan, yes. I believe in, and respect, many gods and goddesses, however I choose to worship only those that call on me. I am not Wiccan, as I associate that term with Gerald Gardener's practice which came around in the 1940s (He was, after all, the one who came up with the term "Wicca", so if I want to call myself that then I suppose I'd have to play by all of his rules, and I don't. :P). I am however, a practicing witch.
Secondly, I believe in the Christian God. I simply do not believe that he is the only god (obviously). Would that mean that I am calling the Christian God a liar since He is insisting that He is the only God? Eh. I'm not saying that that is not a possibility (no disrespect). But I also think that perhaps, the followers of the Christian God are meant to focus completely on Him, and no other. I do not worship the Christian God, and so that rule does not apply to me. If that is what the followers of Christ are called to do, then ... that's that. I have all of the respect and understanding in the world for that. I believe in many gods, and I do not think that so many people in the world are worshiping...nothing.
Anyway. My question is about how you asked how we Pagans know that our gods and "spirits" that we speak to are not of harmful intent? Well, we aren't stupid, heh. We have a conscience, same as you. If something *feels* wrong, 9 times out of 10, it is. Wiccans, and most eclectic witches like myself, live beneath the rule "An if it harm none, do as thou wilt." Christians, and people of other religions, all falter in their life. You think that you are doing good and are genuinely trying to, but sometimes you don't see the harm you're inflicting. This has nothing to do with our deities. We know that the gods and goddesses we choose to worship mean well just as you know your God means well. If you want, I could turn the question back around to you. How do you know God is not some evil entity who wrote a book to brainwash all of mankind? Please don't say that the Bible tells us so. :/ That's circular logic, and I mean no disrespect when I jump to the assumption that you would say that.. But I've had this discussion with several Christians and that's always the first argument they use. We know that our deities mean well because we see results, just the same as you. It's all about what we believe. You cannot prove that your God isn't some evil, malicious, manipulative deity anymore than we can.
I do look up to your God, and have prayed to Him when I felt that I needed His guidance on matters that branched out of the Christian faith and its followers. I pray to whatever god or goddess is associated with whatever problem I may encounter. Just the same as if I needed a shoe repaired, I would take it to a shoe repair shop. I would not take my questions and issues that pertain to Christians or Christianity to any other god. I do believe in that power. I simply do not believe that there is anything that I can serve Him with or that my path leads there, and I personally believe that He knows that. I serve my own gods and goddesses that call to me, and I worship them.
A reply to a Pagan's question ...
Hi Whimsy,
I appreciated reading your post and I think you asked some good questions. I, for one, would not be game to accuse you of calling God a liar, because ...
a) I don’t know what is leading you to question His claims, and
b) I don’t know if you’ve ever read much of the Bible.
It is quite important thing to do in matters like this because “your decisions are only as good as your facts”. (Don’t know who said that but it’s true!) And since we are talking about what different gods are like, we should consider what is written in the Christian God’s book.
After reading your post, I see a fundamental difference in your approach to Spirituality and the Christian understanding. It seems to me that you have learnt how to use various gods to get what you want, and therefore if the Christian God can offer something that no other one can, why not take what He has to offer when it suits?
Throughout history many different people/religions have approached their god(s) in the same way – work out what you have to do to stop them getting angry, and then what to do to get what you want. The God of the Bible is different in a huge way. He encourages us to call Him Father, He longs for us to turn to Him with our whole heart, He desires for us to get to know Him, what He likes and what He dislikes, He teaches us the things that are best for us in this life and those things that will be harmful. He warns us when we are out of line and disciplines us if we persist in doing wrong things. Even during discipline, His aim is for our good, not to ‘vent His anger’. This understanding helps us to develop a relationship with our God, rather than just treat Him like a vending machine. The relationship is like a child to a loving parent.
So, to your questions:
You say…
“My question is about how you asked how we Pagans know that our gods and "spirits" that we speak to are not of harmful intent? Well, we aren't stupid...”
With all due respect, the issue is not whether Pagans are stupid. The problem is the overwhelmingly superior intellect and resources of spiritual entities. Not only are they ageless with perfect memory and recall, they have the ability to move in and out of our range of electro-magnetic frequency, perfectly recreating any natural phenomenon they wish to. Stephen Hawkings, next to one of these beings, would be a total brain dead numbskull!!! (Therefore, compared to these beings we are all morons). It is interesting therefore to note that in the book of Revelation we are told that Satan will deceive the majority of humanity because of these abilities. That is, most people underestimate his abilities and think all miracles automatically must be from God or some being with good intentions.
The maxim you quote: “An if it harm none, do as thou wilt” assumes much. It assumes that your judgment is accurate of a thing being harmful to yourself or others. The God of the Bible however has this to say: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding…be not wise in your own eyes.”
So then, the question is: Can you trust your judgment (mortal, limited & based on limited information) as opposed to advice given by the Designer of Sustainer of all life?
You say…
“We know that our deities mean well because we see results, just the same as you.”
I would ask, what makes you think that is trustworthy? What would the motive of these other spiritual entities be? Some say they have nothing else in mind than the betterment of humanity. But, according to the Bible, their aim is to destroy. They are more than happy to prosper you in this life if that means you will lose out on an eternity with the God they are in rebellion against. Remember, they can’t hurt or attack God themselves, but they can hurt Him by leading us away from Him to ultimate destruction.
The Bible this… the Bible that…
… it all comes down to the claims of this one book. And so, you raise the question about the motives of the God who supernaturally authored the book.
There are 2 factors that you need to consider:
a) God’s “claim to fame” is the ability to accurately predict the future, with a 100% success rate. There have been hundreds and hundreds of prophecies given in the Bible and the majority of them have been fulfilled, with just a small number of prophecies pointing into the near future yet to be fulfilled. He even says,
"You gods of the nations, present your case. Bring the best arguments you have! Come here and predict what will happen, so that we will know it when it takes place. Explain the events of the past, and tell us what they mean. Tell us what the future holds--- then we will know that you are gods!
There is much that could be said about Bible prophecy, but to summarise: The test of true prophecy is that it is always correct. If a prophecy does not come to pass it is either not from the true God, it hasn’t happened yet, or it has been misunderstood/misinterpreted.
That leads us to the second factor:
b) If the God of the Bible is malicious or of evil intent, the joke is really on everyone for sure and nothing is dear to Him. That He might go to all the trouble to send His Son to this earth, to live a life without any mistakes (aka sin) and submit Himself to the most debasing and cruel treatment, even after doing nothing but blessing and healing people… like, wow, what a lot of effort to go to just to set people up and deceive them! Instead, the Bible reveals that God's interest in humanity was so strong that He did everything necessary to save us.
In reality, those two factors prove without any doubt that the God of the Bible is indeed the true and living God, and that His heart’s desire for us if for our good – in this life and eternally. If the God of the Bible says that all other gods are nothing, is it because he’s an egotist, or because he’s trying to protect you? I see His love and wisdom in this warning.
One of the best things that the Bible reveals is that God has actually created each one of us for a specific purpose, and our highest happiness can only be found in choosing His plan for our life. That means that if we are following the leading of other spiritual entities (which God has warned us are deceptive) then we are being cheated out of that which would bring the most fulfilment. So then, the question you need to ask yourself is not ‘What will I miss out on by giving up my other gods’, but rather “What am I missing out on by not serving the only true God?”
Or look at it from God’s perspective: If He has something wonderful for your life and you reject it, why should He be happy with that, especially if you are choosing something which is convenient in this life but not for your eternal good?
You mention human conscience, which is good to listen to. But that is not fool proof as it is influenced by our upbringing and what we are taught. If Christians have any advantage, it is that we are better informed and so hopefully we’ll make better choices. But as you noted, we all make mistakes. In that case, the difference is that although we all have to face consequences of our mistakes, God has honoured our choice to serve Him by forgiving us for our mistakes. That’s where Jesus comes into the whole picture. He laid everything on the line to save us all, but He leaves the decision with us individually whether we will accept Him into our lives. What will you choose?
I should give you a warning though: If you decide to follow the God of the Bible and ask Jesus to come into your heart, you will have a battle on your hands. You will soon discover that those spiritual entities which have served you so well in the past will change and start harassing you – they might try to cause accidents, give you nightmares, inflict you with illness, etc (there’s something about Jesus that makes them show their true colours! Funny that they never react like that to other deities…) Since you have openly invited these other ‘gods’ into your life, you will need help to be free from them when they turn on you. Jesus died so that you could have that advantage. You will need to ask the Lord to lead you to Christians who can teach you how to expel them from your life. Some of the people who contribute to this site may be able to help.
I leave my contribution here for you to think about and wish you God’s blessings as you consider these things.
whimsy- thirst for the streams of living water
Whimsy,
I am not going to jump out at you or attempt to change your thinking. You seem to be very comfortable- in your paganism. I can only tell you a true story.
Many years back, a relative of mine was involved in a motorbike accident. She died but was revived. After revival, she was filled with fear of the dark and found it impossible to speak out in front of people- fear ruled her.
This relative- Ruth, had become a Christian at 16, shortly before this accident. Now her life went she was committed in her beliefs and derived much joy from these. But nothing could rid her of this "fear"- nor could she speak publicly or even in front of small groups.
One day she was invited to a gathering of Christians. Christians who not only had believed in Jesus but were filled with the Holy Spirit. During the gathering- a brother stood up and declared, the Lord says so: "There is a woman in this room, one who is oppressed by a spirit of death. This woman is filled with fear and cannot speak out. I am here to set her free" The Lord says, "Stand Up"
As the man was speaking, Ruth stood up. The man walked over to her and commanded the spirit to depart and laid hands on her. Ruth fell to the floor- and they left her there. Some time later, she recovered and stood up. Walked straight to the microphone and gave her testimony before 40 other people- perfectly and flawlessly- ending with, "There is no fear, I am now free".
Ruth was freed from a crippling condition that impacted all areas of her life. She was filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of freedom- and instantly without ceremony, without ritual- she became a fearless warrior for God. As she stated to me privately, "Peer for 18 years I knew God- I knew I was His" yet in one moment- my life changed, it was as if I had experienced God at a great distance, it was as if for 18 years, I had lain besides a dried up watering hole catching the drops, drip by drop." But now I can see, now the river runs through me. And a river it was- the River of the Holy Spirit.
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You see Whimsy- there is a God and the great promise of God is that those who change their mind and reject SELF and the world around and believe and trust in his Son, will be cleaned, restored and will receive the greatest gift that man can receive, greater than kingdoms, the Holy Spirit.
These would go on to do the works of the Holy Spirit. Just the work that was done to and for Ruth- cleaning and clearing out spirits, serpents and whatever that had latched on to them. They would walk bubbling with joy and filled with life. These would speak out with power- the power that penetrates through the mind and roots itself in the spirit.
Today- many believers and unbelievers are seeing what Jesus can do through his Precious Spirit. Christians who were powerless are becoming empowered. Those who did not know Jesus are seeing the work of His Spirit and throwing themselves at his feet- so they too can benefit.
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For many years, the Christian Church, walked bent over and crippled in the same way Ruth was crippled- not necessarily by a spirit of death, but sick and grasping a form of religion rather than the power of God which comes with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
But now today, the Son of God is spreading his wings- preparing His People for His Return. He is pouring out His Spirit both on his sons and daughters, those who previously were weak and crippled are now are rising up in strength. They are no longer preaching religion- but demonstrating the life and power of God.
He is also drawing to Himself, those who don't believe amongst whom are pagans like yourself. Jesus is drawing to himself those who are bold and are willing to believe that they deserve the best- and the best is the Son of God and his precious gift of the Holy Spirit.
Why is this happening today Whimsy?
Well, the same Spirit is telling us that the Son of God is returning. The world of 2009- and the world in ten years will be entirely different worlds. We are going to see great sea movements, movements in the Heavens- believe it- nothing is going to be like it is today- nothing. Fear and calamity is coming to this world. And God is strengthening his own and calling out to those who yet do not know Him.
Now Whimsy- you may carry on worshiping your gods and goddesses. this is your prerogative. If paganism is where you wish to be- then stay there. The Son of God is precious, His blood shed for mankind is the most precious substance in the whole of Creation- it is the elixir of life- for those who are worthy- for those who know its value. In the same way, His Spirit, which is here to be poured out on those who thirst is the river of life. No longer is the Spirit spoken about- now we are experiencing its power, in the same way as in the day of Jesus.
For each man and woman there is a day when God speaks to them- those who are wise should not miss that day. My advice is- don't accept what is useless and without life when life is offered to you. When you too can join to the Son of God and receive His gift of the Holy Spirit.
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If you are bold and fearless and decide to choose life in place of death, the Son of God rather than these lying spirits- you know what you have to do. If you don't, ask!
Peer
Hi Whimsy, Interesting
Hi Whimsy, Interesting questions. I had to answer these questions when I was a child. The Bible is clear that there are gods. The Lord is called "The Most High" The Bible also gives an accounting of the origin of the gods. In the Old testament God says the Israelites worshipped devils.
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
This is the context with which one must reckon. The Christian God either is who He says He is, or He isn't. One cannot simply lump him in with a grouping of their choice.
Think of the universe. It is ordered and run magnificently. Think of the name "uni" verse. It operates in unity. One-ness. The gods are not in agreement. They often have conflicts among themselves - a read of the mythologies shows that they operate out of pettiness many times. Our universe shows a unity of thought and design and of the might and power to sustain that cannot come from a fractitious board of directors known as gods.
The credo "An if it harm none, do as thou wilt." Counters nature and human nature. People often follow that with their limited vision and follow after passions that indeed cause harm. How many sexually transmitted diseases are spread knowingly, or caught unknowingly by people who were 'doing as they wilt' not expecting harm, but receiving it nonetheless.
Jesus Christ offered his life so that man can be freed from the penalty of sin. What god ever did that? They claim there is no sin. They do not have the authority to do that. Which gets back to the primary point. The Christian God created ALL things - therefore He has the right to explain to His creation WHY it exists, and HOW to operate in that existence. When one follows the 10 commandments, there is peace and it all "works".
Now, if one desires to be contentious and argue each point, they can always do that, but then they WILL face the Creator one day soon and the consequences will not be desirable, nor escapable. Thats just the way it is. When one creates ALL things, it is only logical they did it for a reason, or purpose. It is only just that they tell their creation why they were born, where they are going, what reward awaits those who obey, and what results end up for those who disobey. We can try to rewrite the whole thing, but it is foolishness when we evidently have zero power to enforce our will in the eternal plan.
God did create, and God created with a time table in mind that concludes with the devil and his angels being cast into the Lake of Fire and those who worship them cast in with them. You see Whimsy, God created you in His image and He has given you this time to come to Him and accept Him for who He is, or reject Him. The choice is yours.... I recommend you to get off the fence and take a year to SERIOUSLY examine the claims He makes in the Bible and put Him to the test in your life by doing as He says and giving Him the chance to be Lord of your life.
"God is, and He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him." I challenge you to seek Him on HIS terms, not YOURS, and you will find the love, joy and peace your heart longs for. You will find a Comforter in the storm and a Savior from the destruction that must come upon a world intent on destroying itself and one another.
Blessings and Peace as you seek the One True God with ALL your heart,
Timothy
What does Light have to do with Darkness?
As a Christian or person who has repented and received Christ's death on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins I am NOW a Child of God or a Child of the Light. I have nothing in common with the Darkness or Dark forces of this world or any other reality/dimension. I only have fellowship with others who are also of the Light. I don't offer friendship or any kind of compromise to those who choose to serve other gods. The fact is everyone who is not reconciled to God through Jesus will have to face his judgement and wrath. I offer no apologies for what the Bible teaches, I didn't write it and it isn't mine to change as I wish. I accept the Word of God as true and unchangable. I can only repnet for myself and offer this truth to others. If others don't want to accept it that is their choice.
1TH 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
2CO 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
2CO 6:17 "Therefore come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."
2CO 6:18 "I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty."
2CO 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
EPH 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Lessons from my Correspondance with Adam
Lessons from Adam
1 Don't get pulled in with the "I just want to be friends" line. Scripture says for a man to have friends, he must show himself friendly. It is not my responsibility to make a friendship happen somehow. Friendship is a matter of the heart that unites two people. We are not to be united with those who hate God - like, how foolish is that?! If a pagan wishes to befriend a Christian, that is a dream with more of a hook than a reality for them. If they have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in their lives, and they have not accepted your relationship with Him, then the relationship they propose to desire with you is there to lead you away from your Savior. I learned that lesson over 30 years ago with my Dad. He believed in spaceships and other inhabited planets being mentioned in the Bible. As a teenager, I did not agree with his conclusions. I was aware that because that was his heartfelt belief, (and there was an element of "Christ is coming this year and you had better be ready",) and that he loved me; the natural conclusion would be that he had a strong desire to draw me into agreement with his deception for my own sake.
When someone professes love for you, it may be sincere. If it is, they will want you to believe all the "wonderful" things they believe - all for your own good. When a Pagan says, "I just want to be friends," they are believing a lie. You can be sure your friendship is not there on their part to bring them to Christ, whom they despise, but to bring you to Satan's kingdom. Good is greater than evil, all the time, but we are specifically enjoined to have no part in it, or fellowship with it.
2 Friends respect friends. For a pagan to say "I want to be friends and get along with you people who are so stupid that you trust God," is the height of rudeness. When your beliefs have been belittled and berated, you know that friendship is not the real objective. You cannot dishonor my family and say you honor me. If you do, you have stated that the price of my friendship with you incudes that I distance my heart from my family to some degree. When that family happens to be the Body of Christ, I am too busy pressing in, to be distracted with debate and doubts. Those were answered years ago for me. It is not my responsibility to give those answers to a skeptic. As my threads with Adam will show, he was not interested in receiving any answers, he just wanted answers that he could douse with his own hatred for Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
3 Friendship is an allegiance. We can be polite and civil with Pagans without forming a bond in the name of 'friendship." Friendship is a heart level relationship that opens one's spirit up to another's in a 'soul-tie'. This is where the devil gains an opening to deceive. I stated friendship as a way of displaying that I was not Adam's personal enemy. That is where I crossed the line, because it aligned me with his kingdom - YUCK! Forgive me Lord Jesus!
I like to get along with people. I think my posts with Adam show that. But, if someone desires to get along with you, let them be the ones who forsake their gods to do so. Lead them to Christ, and then you may have common ground for a mutual friendship.
4 Friendships are not manipulated from us. When you hear the line, "why can't we just get along?," it comes with a pull for you to pony up something to "get along" on their terms. If someone wants to "get along" with me, all they generally have to do is be agreeable. Don't come to me and say "I want to get along, and here is why your belief system is stupid..." If they want to get along, then praise the virtues of my belief system. If they want to subvert my belief system, then cut the "I just want to get along" baloney. When you see flattery mixed with berating of your belief system, there is death in the mix. Steer clear. I did not and I hope the Lord will use this to show others the folly of it, as he did me.
Conclusion: Adam and other pagans need a clear witness of who we are and what we believe and we leave it at that. It is not up to me to "prove" God to anyone. God leaves it up to each of us to "taste and see that the Lord is good" for ourselves. I cannot do that for another person, nor can you. We testify to what we have seen and heard. If the person turns on us and rails against those truths - casting more truth out there will not make it better. Save the pearls, and save yourself the heartache. "Do not cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn and tear at you." This is what Adam was doing when he made statements like, "oh, I didn't know you were referencing the Bible as your authentic source...". It was all said in a matter of fact conversational tone, but there were spears and arrows in those words and I should have been outta there! Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is to be a friend from a distance. I love Adam, but it is not up to me to prove it to him in his flawed terms. God loves Adam too, and will forgive him when he repents for berating God and exalting gods that cannot save. Jesus is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Light. NO man comes to the Father, except through Him. That is a horrendously narrow statement - but it happens to be TRUE, We can choose to be offended as spoiled brats, or we can "GET OVER IT" and get on with finding the peace, and fulfillment that comes once we do.
If you have found Jesus Christ as your personal savior, HOLD FAST to Him and don't have fellowship with anyone who would take that away from you! When you throw a lifeline, you don't jump in the water after it, you have to man your station and stand firm for the other person's sake as well as your own.
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
Thank you Timothy
Timothy-
Sorry for the late return- bless you!
It is not up to me to judge or even correct another believer unless they are bringing disrepute to the Gospel. There was nothing in your conversation with Adam, that brought disrepute to the Gospel.
My concern was for you- not Adam. Your letter is more than sufficient. We could talk further but not publicly on this.
My discovery is that as I have lost shape and Christ's shape has been formed within me, that I have become aware of the difference between cordiality, affection versus love. The Gospel presents many encounters Jesus had with persons and in each encounter Jesus' words and actions were orientated to doing what was best for that person. The Hebrew word transliterated ahava has as its root "to give"- also love.
So, love is a giving and in Christ, it is a giving that produces a dying to self and a living in Christ. Whenever we witness to others inside or outside the Body of Christ it is to encourage a movement to dying for the sake of living. this is the example that was set for me by those who discipled me for ministry. Seeing this and their ministering with power, rather than words, I coveted this and every day this coveting grows.
Whom am I to instruct you in this? no one.
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May you be filled with the dying of Christ and thereby his resurrection power, so that your conversation as with all things is laced with grace, seasoned with salt.
Peer.
Praise God Tim!
Amen! I pray that the Lord will continue the work He has started in you and will lead you into all truth. I pray that you will become a mighty warrior for the pulling down of strongholds, and when you say to this mountain or that mountain be picked and cast into the sea; that it will obey you.
I pray that God will teach you to be a peace maker and that you will never again be deceived into being a peace keeper.
Walk in the peace of God and not the peace of man.
Corey
Thanks MelodyCat for taking
Thanks MelodyCat for taking the time to make that clear. I did not have rest in my spirit following my initial post to Adam on being friends. There is a line drawn in the heavenlies that must not be crossed, and I unwittingly crossed it, but now I repent and align with God's Word to walk as a son of light.
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
Replies to Adam
I agree with Jim (Lookigforacity)that you should leave your replies to Adam. I think your replies are important. We grow in Christ. This is good for other Christians to see how we grow. I have shown you verses some one else shared with me. Now you have learned what the Bible says on this. If you remove your dialogue with Adam it would not tell the full story.
Cheers
Mel
RE: Repentance
Tim:
Don't take any of your posts to Adam off, as PEER says you should, they are part of a dialog that has already taken place, if you take them off, then Adam just goes on, and on without your input. I posted on the 1st. of May that we should not give him a voice, I still feel that we shouldn't but to censor you for doing what you thought was right at the time would NOW be wrong. As I stated on May 1, think of the young Christians that could be misled. Instead of deleting things, write a open letter to the future. Put down your original reasons for doing what you did, then what you feel today, that would be a better repentance than deleting. Use this opportunity to teach the young of the future, from your experience, that's how we all learn.
Love for a brother
JIM
I am posting this here because!
First off I wanted to let Jim know I have really enjoyed reading your post and can tell that you have earnestly sought after the council of the Lord.
May you always pursue the Lord with all your heart. May you always be a lampstand that points others to examine themselves to see that they are in the faith. May darkness always flee from the light that you walk in and may darkness never be able to over take you.
God Bless
Corey
Adam's playground
Substance of Faith
In your first stream of postings before self-imposed exile- you went to great lengths to explain why you continued to linger on the site after having previously declared that you were exiting never to return. Visit or leave but spare us self-justification.
It appears that practicing paganism has not fulfilled your spiritual thirst, else what are you doing here? In your first postings you took pains to explicate your familiarity with the Greek and Hebrew languages. From what I read you have picked up a smattering of Latin- finished off with an experience with a Jewish Rabbi. This aside, I ask one question: "what new or fresh insight are you putting on the table?"
Your vivid insights gleaned from your scholarship are: <> Jesus is fiction <> the Bible's revelation of God is concocted, for God is no more than a tribal deity <> Jesus as portrayed in the bible is a violent, cruel and vindictive man etc.? Adam, your thoughts on the character of the bible and Jesus constitutes a very small pebble on a great information pile- of no value to anyone let alone visitors to this site.
The bible and faith
We who have found life in Christ have- been convicted in our spirit that Scripture is the Word of God and through Scripture we have come to know that Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Son of God. Not only have we been convicted by the work of the Holy Spirit, the character of the narrative speaks to us. We haven't been changed by textual claims or information but by the Spirit of God. For the convicted believer these matters are as tangible as any physical event that you hold as fact. If your wisdom exceeds your demonstrated verbosity, you will know that not every fact is directly testable; there are physical facts and there are spiritual facts- the former objective and the latter experiential.
Anyone can sit down with a pile of evidence, and selectively approve or dismiss based on their frame of reference- but we are presented a different path- a spiritual tool- faith. Faith is not a mental conviction of the truth of a matter but rather a confirmation within our spirit, a conviction. This is is not a work of our neuro-physiology but of the Holy Spirit. And like all discernment, insight and revelation- the means to realizing this is 'attitude' The appropriate attitude is: 'humility' and fear of God. Given that you display neither, you have missed the revelation of God which comes through faith. While a person may come to some understanding about the matters of Scripture and the person of Jesus through a mental reasoning process, such understandings cannot and do not impact on the spirit.
If you don't believe in the holy Spirit, or the working of faith in the sense I have described- then keep it to yourself- the fact that you need to make a noise about it demonstrates your sense of self importance.
Your scholarship
Jesus described a situation where Pharisaic Jews crossed oceans to win a convert before debasing what they had won. Now you, seem to have journeyed far too. In your pursuit of truth, having placed yourself under rabbinical guidance, why did you not establish whether Jesus is a fictional character. No one can fault the rabbinical Judaism's propensity towards record keeping in Talmud-Gemara and Mishnah- If any party has a vested interest in the "fictional character of Jesus" it has to be rabbinical Judaism?
Commonality?
As for shared beliefs or points of agreement, those who are led by the Spirit have zero point of commonality with you- for everything is seen in the light of Christ- whether this is the natural world, relationships with other men and women- everything. Our sole conversation with you is to point you to the Savior of all men- Jesus Christ. In Jesus we could have conversation- outside Jesus none!
Christian responsibility for carnage, hate and war?
You make the point that Christians are responsible for wars, destruction, hate mongering ..... I would suggest to you that you are not as familiar with the Bible as you claim. For the Bible explicitly states that "by their fruit you will know them". John in his letters especially his first letter underlines this point- those who are of Christ demonstrate this by love. This appears to be one of the many gaps in your rush over Scripture. If you had heeded this, you would have understood what Jesus meant when he proclaimed, "not all who call me Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven".
Tough Love Sometimes the required love is tough love- just as that demonstrated by Jesus in the temple- that act which you see as "despicable" The point is, by many of your postings you have shown yourself to be an obnoxious, conceited person- character traits most of us share in, outside the cover of the Redeemer's Blood.
Bottom Line: all men and women are born self centered and live filthy lives in the eyes of God- this by the very Scriptures that you don't believe in. Let not Jesus' words remain applicable to you, “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
So, Change your mind about Christ and accept his sacrifice that he made on your behalf that you might be cleaned of your conceit and sin and replaced by life. If you embrace life return and share the good news; otherwise share your insights with your fellow pagans, for there you will have a wide audience.
Peer
A quick comment
I’ll make only a quick comment in regard to all that you said. That is this: My Latin and Hebrew are excellent and well proven. The fact that you are unable to tell the differences between Classical Latin and liturgical Latin shows your own defects not mine.
Adam
Re: Can There Be No Middle Ground?
I am replying to a post I cannot even read. I see the title in the left menu, but cannot pull up the post. I am assuming this is a question from Adam to myself, so if I am wrong, you know why and you know what I just made of myself!
There is plenty of middle ground when it comes to Pagans and Christians. We find ourselves in the midst of it every day. I work around all kinds of people and see young pagans along the way. I enjoy saying hello and being friendly. It is not like they have anything that will jump out and bite me.
If I were to log into a pagan board and have a candid dialog, I presume my beliefs would be soundly challenged by the group and one or two might curse me openly and others privately. There is one kingdom at war and the greater kingdom is biding its time until "the fulness of times has come" then the curse will be broken off this planet and the inhabitants will rejoice!
The place for friend making between Pagans and Christians is not on a forum where one faith system is there to proclaim its beliefs. This forum will generate discussion and perhaps greater understanding of each other's position, but friendships among opposing view holders is not possible when they are focused on promoting their views. Two cannot walk together, unless they are agreed.
The question, "Can there be no middle ground?" Seems inaccurate in that it implies a state of war between the people themselves. I am not at war with you Adam, and I know you are not at war with me - but the kingdom you represent is at war against the kingdom I represent on this board. There is middle ground for getting along, but not for spiritual communion. There is only so close we can come to each other without that invisible wall separating.
Its been an interesting conversation Adam. May the Lord grant you peace as you place your trust in Him. I hope in all our conversation that I have not gone "over the top" with you and denigrated you as a human being. If I have, please let me know so I can improve my behavior.
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
Repentance means action not words
if you believe in the confession you made to Melodycat- then remove this posting & related postings, so that young Christians are not misled.
Peer, I cannot edit my
Peer,
I cannot edit my posts that have been replied to. This I will say for the record. The middle ground is not one of communion, it is one of coexistence. We do not have commonality with pagans, but we do not go around berating them on their message boards or personally attacking them. They are God's children who are lost. We are to love our neighbors and are commanded to even love our enemies (those who have made themselves enemies to us) for thereby 'be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect."
We occupy a place in this earth and are commanded to walk in love with all men. This is the middle ground to which I refer - not a place of fellowship, but a place of accepting that their choices are their choices and moving on with our lives as Christians free of their influence. Sincerely, do you see a problem with that brother?
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
Timothy scroll down to bottom of page it should offer 2 page!
Hey Timothy,
Regarding not being able to read the post from Adam to you;try scrolling all the way to the bottom of the page it sends you to and it should offer you a second page to scroll to. I was having same problem earlier and this is how I figured it out.
I also wanted to thank you for being such a encouragement to me. Thank you and God Bless all the days of your life
Corey
I don't know why, but it
I don't know why, but it won't take you to other pages of this article. Just scroll down and click on page two, Tim, it's all there for you to read. You're right though, it was a reply to you.
It's been a while.
Hello michael,
How have you been? I hope well. How is your wife? Again I hope she is doing much much better.
It's been a while and I was thinking about you and this site and just wanted to see how things were.You can guess how surprised I was to see the amount of discussion you and I generated. I have to say it’s a good thing, healthy debate, even when disagreeing is always good. Now I know you are very Christian and that you are even a sincere one. That is something which I respect. I as many other Pagans do will find your article errant and offensive, however the truth is that this IS A CHRISTAIN WEBSITE and thus WE (Pagans) ought not to be surprised by your views or even condemn you for them. Your faith is your faith and we will not be able to assist you. I would like it if you were nicer to Pagans but then I suppose you are as nice to us as you can be and more so than many other Christians have been. If you do not mind, I would like to come back and join the group…not as a regular commenter but just as a stop in once in a while and see how you are. I’ve not finished reading everything on the page yet…haven’t had the time but I look forward to doing so. For now I send you good thoughts and a blessing.
Adam.
Hi Adam
Yes, thanks for asking. My wife is doing well these days.
You are right about this being a Christian website. The other thing to consider is that I have a lot of roles to fulfil - as a father, a pastor, a real estate agent, and so on - and so I don't always get the time to really research into a lot of important areas. I have to "choose my battles" so to speak. So I can't always go into depth on any conversation, due to the time it can take to do the proper research. I'm more interested in PRACTICING Christianity than defending it, and this means that I have plenty of challenges all the time.
I'm sure you understand that. In any case, please understand that I don't wish on you or anyone else HARM. I actually have a deep passion for the eternal and even temporal well-being of people. That is why, given my convictions, I invest time and money into evangelism. I don't make the rules in this Universe, God does. As I understand it, our God wants all people to come to Him and receive His love, but sadly, most will not. He doesn't take pleasure in the death of any sinner.
Capitalization a form of Respect
Just a question I have why is it that you will capitalize some of the divisions of Paganism but you won't capitalize Paganism itself? I'm currently writing an argumentative paper for my college english class about Discriminations against Pagans and I had to write neutral perspectives of each of the sides, so I went looking for the more Fundamentalist view and found this site. I just couldn't help myself and had to ask about it since I'm taking the time and courtesy to capitalize Christianity I only ask that you would give us Pagans that much respect in return.
Giving Satan a VOICE
I find it very disturbing, that people like these come on to a christian site, then start to disrupt it by making damnable statements.
We do not have to defend our beliefs to anyone.
When this happens, we are not dealing with the person, these people are fully given over to evil.
Understand that you could debate with them all day, never getting anywhere with them. They will constantly change the subject, or challenge anything you say, all the while making Anti God, Jesus, Holy Spirit statements.
Whenever you start talking to them you have to be able to discern the spirit you are dealing with. Is it a spirit of ignorance,ie, the spirit of the unlearned?
Or is it the Spirit of Anti Christ?
If it is the Spirit of Anti Christ, do not have anything to do with it, do not give it PLACE. Every question you answer, or ask, "You are giving it a "VOICE", We are told to mark such a one and have nothing to do with them.
The biggest example of this kind of a conversation in the bible, would be EVE talking to the Serpent.
Remember this, they have not come here to learn, or a seeking of the truth, don't be tricked into thinking you are going to be the one that will be able to show them the errors in their life. They have only come to debate. YOU are the one that opens the door for them to speak.
Keep in mind, that there are people that come on to this site, and other sites where these types of conversations have taken place,
they are new Christians, and can be deceived with the lies that they might read.
We are to esteem our brothers above those in the world, so in the future, you who are spiritual, think of those weaker vessels that might stumble because of what we might have done.
You were right Jim! Here are
You were right Jim! Here are some lessons learned.
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/paganism#comment-4981
It is my hope that in some of my replies, those coming after will see that there are answers. However the folly is that even correct answers will engender a multitude of questions from those who refuse to believe.
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
The Bible tells us to answer
The Bible tells us to answer a fool lest he be wise in his own conceit. True, it also says, do not answer a fool lest you be like him. These verses are written by Solomon right next to each other. They are not stand alone verses, nor contradictions, they are discernment verses. We are to discern the circumstance and respond or not according to it.
In this case I answer a fool because others coming behind should not be left with the false impression that Christianity has no answer, or an inferior one. While doing so, I do not seek to draw out further conversation but simply reply to the conversation that is.
You are right to not engage and give a stage to those who hate the Lord, but ignoring it totally on a public forum is not wise. Notice my replies do not seek for 'illumination' of the person's opinions. I have a rhetorical question in it with the answer spelled out. These are areas to discern and work with accordingly.
Blessings and Peace,
Timothy
There are two kinds of fools
Those who know they are fools and those who don't. Ones who know they are fools (moral rebels) and others who don't.
Oh Dear God
Oh Dear God, please remove the scales from Adam's blind eyes! I wasn't the least bit angry by his posts, just saddened because of the way the god of this world has blinded his mind so he cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. It is so sad that people are so blinded that they insist on calling what is good, evil and what is evil, good. Let us continue to be in prayer for Adam and others like him.
By the way, as a point of clarification, John 2 is the only passage about Jesus driving out the money changers that mentions a whip, and he used it to drive out all, both the (Greek "ta te") sheep and the oxen. It makes perfect sense that He needed a whip to get the animals out, but He did NOT use it on people. Those who are desperate to find sin in the only sinless One (who took THEIR sins upon Himself, mind you) always try to use this verse to paint Jesus as violent. Yes, He drove out the moneychangers, as He should have, but He DIDN'T "assault" them. Please stop distorting Scripture to serve your own purposes!
Please pray for Adam
Wow, I have just finished reading Adam's post and to say I am shocked, is an understament. It really breaks my heart to here people like Adam speak like that about Jesus Christ, But then again, I have also been there too and yes I have many friends who share the same feelings!It is so easy to dismiss the existance of God and Jesus Christ coz then, there is no need for us to be accountable.Adam, I have seen God work wonders in my life. I was once lost and now I am found, was blind and now I can see...all this because My God saw it fit, to give His only so to die for me. There cannot be any greater love than this Adam and I pray that you will one day get the revelation of the love that compelled the son of man, him who knew no sin,to take up that cross and die "our death"...Adam,you and I do not deserve this mercy.But God is gracious and forgiving...
To all the other brothers and sister in christ,John9:25 He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!". Lets not get caught up in the technicalities of "how" we were healed,the evidence is already there, u were blind and now can see...and please continue to pray for Adam and many like him.
Fact
Who conducted the Witch Hunt and the Salem Witch Trials (both real events in history) and helped, if not started the persecution of many innocents? Oh, yes. It was the Christians. Now let me ask YOU something. What have the Paganists ever done to the Christian religion, physically, or mentally?
Paganism, witchcraft, and wicca
Firstly, Michael if there is any thing that is true in your original article, please for this person's sake and others of the sort, give resources. If they must be condemned, then it must not be by our opinions, but by the testimony of the Lord.
Bellis, if you would, give us the information about this so that we may condemn it properly. :)
As for all of witchcraft, Wicca, paganism, the Lord God says to you this:
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
- Deuteronomy 19:10-12
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
- Galatians 5:19-21
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
- Revelation 21:8
Thus far, all that you do, regardless of what, is condemned and earns you this second death.
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
- Mark 1:15
Repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
- Acts 26:20
38Repent, and be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
- Acts 2:38-39
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
- John 3:3
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
- John 3:5
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.
- Acts 16:31
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
- Matthew 16:24
Bellis, repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ whom you bear witness of yourself, saying, "2- Over 96% of us believe in the existence of Jesus, for there is biological proof of his existence, only not of your "God"." Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him.
The evidence of God is in all of creation, it is in even you. If you need evidence of the existence of God then you will find it only when you seek it. For it is written, "Search and you shall find."
I trust my God that He shall work in you to draw you to Himself by His love and grace as He reproves you of the fullness of your sin. Take these words I have given to you to heart.
Re:Fact
Mentally you just defiled me with your last post that told me to do some ungodly thing to myself! That is abusive language by all recognized standards. You have condemned your own arguments. Paganism is not innocent, nor is witchcraft. You take actions of hundreds of years ago by a few and make ALL who call on the name of Christ responsible? I don't think so.
Get to know Jesus Christ. He is coming and you want to be on the right side when He gets here. He has the right to demand obedience because He is God and He created all things. You are worshipping the created and not the Creator. Surrender your pride, and let Him show you what true love is all about.
One Last Thing
Us Pagans that read this should be HIGHLY offended from the lack of knowledge, and public exploit of false myths. I am highly offended, and request that you remove it from the website.
Get over it
Remove your own beliefs from your website if you have one and tell your friends to do the same, if you think that people should delete their own pages because someone else finds them "highly offensive".
Get off your high horse.
You Really have to get your facts straight.
There are so many things wrong with the passage that I want to shoot myself for reading. I want you to read all of this before you go to the next, because this is important to religion, not just the two in question. First of all, Wicca and Witchcraft are one and the same. Two, we do not believe in ANY god, but in the fact that there is spirit and soul in everything that is around us. Three, "A deity that can be destroyed is not worth worshipping"? BULL!!! The very fact that it is fragile and destroyable shows that not only is spirit fragile, but so is life. Four,I want you to tell me with all the science in your body. Were we created, or did we evolve? I thought so. Evolution exists!!! Five, "Creator vs. Created" has nothing to do with our religion! There is no "Creator" in question, only spirit in what has EVOLVED! Six, we do not "cast curses" which will be sent back by your interpretation known as "God". We only mix ingredients and do so at certain times to heal, not to harm. Seven, you got the fact right that we do not worship or believe in the devil, for giving evil a name is giving it power, and powerful evil is never wanted. You gave evil a name, so you gave evil power. Eight, have you ever even seen any of the "abundant evidence" you mentioned? No, the 10 Commandments do not count, as they could have just as easily been faked. Nine, "the wrath to come" in question is death, as you experience in time, too. Ten, have you ever read the Pagan sacred book, talked to a Pagan about their religion, or ever even seen a Pagan interact with Nature? Exactly. Eleven, you can't just point a finger in our faces and say that "spirits told us that Jesus never existed" because of two reasons. 1- We do not commune with spirits of any kind. 2- Over 96% of us believe in the existence of Jesus, for there is biological proof of his existence, only not of your "God". Twelve, a special request for all of you that say that Pagans are Satanic, evil, or devil worshipping with our pentacle, F**K YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
day of trouble
Bellis- thank you for clarifying your passionately held beliefs.
Days of darkness come to all of us, when what we hold to passionately are shaken. When that day comes for you then read Psalm 23. Jesus is the Shepherd spoken of in this Psalm.
Right now you might see Jesus as irritating but later when that time of darkness comes remember, Jesus died for all, you too. On that day don't hesitate to approach Jesus for He is compassionate and mighty to save.
Until then- Go well!
Peer.
You are really confused, if not misleading
I wrote this piece a long time after reading materials written by professed followers of Wicca and by followers of the Witchcraft religion. To you, the two may be one and the same, but who made YOU an authority on the subject? Honestly, think about it. There are OTHERS who wish to use words in DIFFERENT ways to you. They may be "HIGHLY OFFENDED" at your statements also, so perhaps you should retract them :-). Satanists, for example, practice witchcraft, as do many other religionists of various shapes and sizes, but not all who practice witchcraft are satanists. And some like to call Witchcraft "their religion". Understand you do not, and cannot know everything about the way others wish to name their religions and practices. If you behave as if you do, then it is YOU who are ignorant.
I think that your particular version of paganism was made up quite recently, because all the Wiccans I spoke to believe very much in "the goddess" and somewhat in "the god". I can't possibly address all the possible belief systems in paganism with one article, because there are so many variations. You can't claim to represent paganism as a whole, but only what your particular beliefs are within your particular pagan system.
Why are you worried about me commenting on the foolishness of worshipping gods that are fragile and can be destroyed, since you say you do not believe in ANY of them?
As far as evolution is concerned, to me it is pure wishful thinking. I have a science degree from a reputable Australian university, and my father was an associate professor in Applied Mathematics at Sydney University. He is an expert in astronomy, cosmology and has read a lot of biochemistry as well. We both reject evolution, as do many well read scientists. Not all bow down to the politically correct doctrines of Darwinism. You should read the other side if you care to know. The doctrine of Evolution is not science per se, in my view it is merely the outgrowth of a Philosophy. There is a clutching at straws going on by materialist philosophers and a lot of "just so" declarations made by people who cannot prove their interpretations of the data. Mutations occur, but as Sir Fred Hoyle showed in his paper "The Mathematics of Evolution", its virtually impossible for them to produce any kind of significant change that macro-evolution requires.
If you want to know about the abundant evidence for Jesus Christ, you'll have to take the time to read and view relevant videos. Have a read of the testimonies on this site and other site, look up Christian miracles on youtube, interact with more people, and you'll find out. Read Christian books discussing the resurrection of Christ, or even what is on this site on that subject.
I think giving evil a name is very useful. Leaving it un-named means that you can't talk about it. If you can't talk about it as evil, you can't stop it. That is why even secular governments have LAW books. If they didn't, how could you ever convict anyone of a crime. Please, start thinking. Don't just believe everything you have been fed.
I imagine there are countless books written by Pagans. I don't have the time to read them. Its like this: if I read the book you recommend, some other pagan would tell me that it was wrong in so many places anyway. So whats the use?
Just because you SAY you do not commune with spirits of any kind does not mean that you don't. It is the "spirits" that impart the thoughts that you might think come from "the Universe" or something like that. Its just that YOU don't see them for what they are. Other pagans, like one I talked with a week ago on the street, do believe in spirits, but don't think they are evil.
Finally there is no need to be gross or insulting or use foul language to abuse those you are angry at. When you behave like that, you don't inspire much confidence. Its hard to avoid the conclusion that you are an emotionally immature person with a lot of bitterness and unresolved anger inside.
I agree with Michael
I agree with Michael 100% here! I hate when that happens…LOL!
Look there are as many variations on Paganism as there are on Christianity. Paganism has no “POPE” or even a “BIBLE” to claim it’s this way or else! It’s one of the very beautiful things about Paganism. Not one of us (Pagans) can claim anything for anyone else, it just won’t fly. Michael is also right when he admonishes you for your vagueness. It proves nothing and it helps nothing. STOP DOING IT PLEASE! You give not only yourself a bad name but the rest of us as well. It’s not fair. We Pagans do not WANT or NEED persons who resort to foul speech as a spokesperson or even a member of any of our groups. Michael and all other Christians here, please forgive this person. Most Pagans are not like that. I won’t touch on evolution right now, not enough time so I’ll save that for another time. I know that Paganism and Christianity are going to have to Co-exist there for it would do all of us good to get along even if we disagree. When I was last here things were a bit heated and so I wanted to end it on a positive note or as much as a positive note as I could leave with. I hope that Michael understood that. I think we can all get along civilly.
Many blessings,
Adam